Breaking Band: Tri-band LTE / eCSFB issues thread

[chamb]

All I can say is this.  If you are obsessed with being on LTE 24/7 everywhere -- even within the established coverage footprint -- good luck.  That is not going to be the case for years, maybe another decade.  eHRPD fallback is going to happen.  So, deal with it, or go find another provider -- and hope for the best.  At least in the Kansas market, eHRPD fallback is hardly the shitstorm it is made out to be.  Because of the traffic now running over LTE, eHRPD is just as usable as LTE for real world purposes -- absent the e-penis speed tests.

 

AJ

AJ,

I am not your normal user.  I watch the phone almost all the time just for the fun of it.  However, we all paid a premium for LTE service and when the signal is there at an -84 level, I expect the phone to see it and use it. All the carriers are lucky the the general population is not smart enough to know anything about the various bands and signals.  They just want the phone to work.

No matter what the exact issue is that causes this problem, it needs to be fixed. A phone should not sit on a 3G signal for 20 minutes while there is a blazing hot LTE signal hitting its antenna. Somebody has a programming issue.  Either Samsung, or android, or Sprint.   This somebody needs to get off their butt and fix the issue.

[Yuhfhrh]

Do I need to say it more clearly?  The Katy, TX network is inadequate.  The area has outgrown the site spacing.  Locals have told us so.  Please do not use that as an example.  It is just cherry picking bad experiences.

 

AJ

 

LTE signal of -70 to -90. 3G signal of -65. LTE has 60mbps of bandwidth available on B41, 3G gets 0.01 or times out. This isn't about site spacing, and this has happened to me in Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Olathe, and in Houston.

[WiWavelength]

No matter what the exact issue is that causes this problem, it needs to be fixed. A phone should not sit on a 3G signal for 20 minutes while there is a blazing hot LTE signal hitting its antenna. Somebody has a programming issue.  Either Samsung, or android, or Sprint.   This somebody needs to get off their butt and fix the issue.

 

It is not a Sprint problem.  VZW, AT&T, and T-Mobile devices will hang on to a "3G" signal long after a solid LTE signal is available.  Again, you just have to deal with it.  The issue cannot be fixed until LTE is the only airlink.  Then, beware what you wish for, as the options may be LTE or nothing.

 

AJ

[Yuhfhrh]

It is not a Sprint problem.  VZW, AT&T, and T-Mobile devices will hang on to a "3G" signal long after a solid LTE signal is available.  Again, you just have to deal with it.  The issue cannot be fixed until LTE is the only airlink.  Then, beware what you wish for, as the options may be LTE or nothing.

 

AJ

 

At least as of a month ago, head over to 135th and mur-len. I stayed with a friend there for the night. Sit for about 10 minutes, watch your -95 B41 signal drop down to 3G. It will stay on 3G all night.

 

The same Nexus 5 with a T-mobile Sim never has the issue hanging onto HSPA too long for me in the same areas. It will bring itself back to LTE with a few minutes of idle time.

[WiWavelength]

At least as of a month ago, head over to 135th and mur-len. I stayed with a friend there for the night. Sit for about 10 minutes, watch your -95 B41 signal drop down to 3G. It will stay on 3G all night.

 

The same Nexus 5 with a T-mobile Sim never has the issue hanging onto HSPA too long for me in the same areas. It will bring itself back to LTE with a few minutes of idle time.

 

Again, one -- or even a few locations -- does not an issue make.  That is not a representative sample.  Plenty can offer experiences as counterexamples for both Sprint and T-Mobile.

 

Plus, the Nexus 5 is a quirky handset.  I should know -- I own one.  And it is on the early .15 baseband firmware.  The Nexus 5 is the best and the worst.  There is good reason why its tri band capability was basically six months in coming.

 

AJ

[chamb]

It is not a Sprint problem.  VZW, AT&T, and T-Mobile devices will hang on to a "3G" signal long after a solid LTE signal is available.  Again, you just have to deal with it.  The issue cannot be fixed until LTE is the only airlink.  Then, beware what you wish for, as the options may be LTE or nothing.

 

AJ

AJ,

You are one of the most knowledgeable people on this site, so i try to never argue with you in any way.

BUT, I still say this is a software programming issue and can be fixed. The Sprint software should be able to see the very strong signal from the phone on 3G and then assume that the 4G signal is adequate for the phone.  The system should be smart enough to somehow get the phone over on 4G or at least make a good attempt.. 

One thing for sure, If I was in change of making sure the system worked properly, I would be on my employees every day to solve this issue and if they could not solve it or get the vendors to solve it, some employees would be replaced.   It just is not acceptable to me. I am not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but I see an issue that needs to be fixed.

[WiWavelength]

AJ,

You are one of the most knowledgeable people on this site, so i try to never argue with you in any way.

BUT, I still say this is a software programming issue and can be fixed. The Sprint software should be able to see the very strong signal from the phone on 3G and then assume that the 4G signal is adequate for the phone.  The system should be smart enough to somehow get the phone over on 4G or at least make a good attempt.. 

One thing for sure, If I was in change of making sure the system worked properly, I would be on my employees every day to solve this issue and if they could not solve it or get the vendors to solve it, some employees would be replaced.   It just is not acceptable to me. I am not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but I see an issue that needs to be fixed.

 

If what you propose happened, then some handsets in some locations would bounce back and forth between LTE and eHRPD all of the time.  They would drain their batteries like a drunk guy at a urinal.  The system is not perfect, but you have to understand that it is a balancing act.

 

AJ 

[dedub]

This biggest whale fail of this whole system is that the network should know where lte is available and when a device connects on 3g when the network knows there is LTE available it should direct the device to connect to LTE in the same manner that the network is supposed to switch to different bands.

 

TLDR; 3g to lte hand off should work like lte interband hand off.

 

The fact that it does not, is one of the biggest engineering screwups of this whole upgrade.

[WiWavelength]

This biggest whale fail of this whole system is that the network should know where lte is available and when a device connects on 3g when the network knows there is LTE available it should direct the device to connect to LTE in the same manner that the network is supposed to switch to different bands.

 

TLDR; 3g to lte hand off should work like lte interband hand off.

 

The fact that it does not, is one of the biggest engineering screwups of this whole upgrade.

 

None of the VZW, AT&T, Sprint, nor T-Mobile networks work that way.  So, they are all "screwups."  Sorry.

 

AJ

[S4GRU]

The same Nexus 5 with a T-mobile Sim never has the issue hanging onto HSPA too long for me in the same areas. It will bring itself back to LTE with a few minutes of idle time.

 

I have a very different experience with my Nexus 5 on Tmo and AT&T.  It will not go back to LTE after going to HSPA+ for 3-5 minutes most of the time.  About the same amount of time as when I use Sprint when I travel.  I find myself toggling airplane mode all the time on my Nexus 5 to get LTE again.  And I'm not even a Sprint customer.  The only time my N5 consistently goes back to LTE immediately from HSPA+ is after a phone call.

[Yuhfhrh]

Again, one -- or even a few locations -- does not an issue make.  That is not a representative sample.  Plenty can offer experiences as counterexamples for both Sprint and T-Mobile.

 

Plus, the Nexus 5 is a quirky handset.  I should know -- I own one.  And it is on the early .15 baseband firmware.  The Nexus 5 is the best and the worst.  There is good reason why its tri band capability was basically six months in coming.

 

AJ

 

A few locations does make an issue. I doubt the few locations I've been to are the only ones that suffer from this problem. I use a galaxy S5 as well, and it behaves the same as the Nexus 5 in this regard.

 

Regardless of other networks, there is a problem with Sprint triband devices, or how the network is handling them. They should not hold onto a strong CDMA signal that's overburdened when a strong unburdened LTE signal is available.

 

I propose every 5 minutes:

 

If 1X is signal strength is greater than or equal to -85,

Then inititiate LTE scan.

If LTE scan results in no signal greater than -115 available, return to normal scan behavior until connected to a new 1X sector.

[S4GRU]

A few locations does make an issue. I doubt the few locations I've been to are the only ones that suffer from this problem. I use a galaxy S5 as well, and it behaves the same as the Nexus 5 in this regard.

 

Regardless of other networks, there is a problem with Sprint triband devices, or how the network is handling them. They should not hold onto a strong CDMA signal that's overburdened when a strong unburdened LTE signal is available.

 

I propose every 5 minutes:

 

If 1X is signal strength is greater than or equal to -85,

Then inititiate LTE scan.

If LTE scan results in no signal greater than -115 available, return to normal scan behavior until connected to a new 1X sector.

 

Networks are not designed to tell devices to scan.  It doesn't work that way.  What they can do is move you to other places on the network.  But CDMA and LTE are not cohesive network environments where your device on CDMA can be moved over to LTE by the network, like the way the network can move you around from one LTE band to another.  The device is the big instigator about moving between technologies.

 

More can be done in software on the device side.  But given all the different RF propagation characteristics between devices, different radios/basebands, operating systems and OEM's...every adjustment differentially affects another, often with unintended consequences.

 

There are no perfect networks.  Sprint can do some more.  But many people will still feel their network experience is lacking.  And maybe they should find another provider.

[GituSum21]

A few locations does make an issue. I doubt the few locations I've been to are the only ones that suffer from this problem. I use a galaxy S5 as well, and it behaves the same as the Nexus 5 in this regard.

 

Regardless of other networks, there is a problem with Sprint triband devices, or how the network is handling them. They should not hold onto a strong CDMA signal that's overburdened when a strong unburdened LTE signal is available.

 

I propose every 5 minutes:

 

If 1X is signal strength is greater than or equal to -85,

Then inititiate LTE scan.

If LTE scan results in no signal greater than -115 available, return to normal scan behavior until connected to a new 1X sector.

I think the problem in Katy is there just is not enough towers out here. ( I live in Katy) Just north of I-10 I get great LTE due to the tower behind the vfw there. Over by the mall and chick fil a area you spoke of I drop to 3g there but pick LTE up driving past that into cinco ranch. Then back to 3g out in Richmond off 99.

 

I think they just need to get some more towers in this area since the explosion in population they last few years or so. I drive all over the west side of Houston and get great LTE where the tower spacing is a lot better.

[Yuhfhrh]

Networks are not designed to tell devices to scan.  It doesn't work that way.  What they can do is move you to other places on the network.  But CDMA and LTE are not cohesive network environments where your device on CDMA can be moved over to LTE by the network, like the way the network can move you around from one LTE band to another.  The device is the big instigator about moving between technologies.

 

More can be done in software on the device side.  But given all the different RF propagation characteristics between devices, different radios/basebands, operating systems and OEM's...every adjustment differentially affects another, often with unintended consequences.

 

There are no perfect networks.  Sprint can do some more.  But many people will still feel their network experience is lacking.  And maybe they should find another provider.

 

I'm proposing this on the device side. 

 

If 1X is signal strength is greater than or equal to -85 and no phone call is active,

Then inititiate LTE scan, even if there is an active data connection.

If LTE scan results in no signal greater than -115 available, return to normal scan behavior until connected to a new 1X sector.

 

I don't see the downside of implementing something like this. It would move more users onto LTE.

[Yuhfhrh]

I think the problem in Katy is there just is not enough towers out here. ( I live in Katy) Just north of I-10 I get great LTE due to the tower behind the vfw there. Over by the mall and chick fil a area you spoke of I drop to 3g there but pick LTE up driving past that into cinco ranch. Then back to 3g out in Richmond off 99.

 

I think they just need to get some more towers in this area since the explosion in population they last few years or so. I drive all over the west side of Houston and get great LTE where the tower spacing is a lot better.

 

Katy does have poor site spacing, but there is a Sprint/Clearwire tower less than half a mile from where I was at. Site spacing was not the issue.

[Dkoellerwx]

Katy does have poor site spacing, but there is a Sprint/Clearwire tower less than half a mile from where I was at. Site spacing was not the issue.

 

I have never seen my N5 camp on 3G when LTE is available for more than 5 minutes. This is my experience in the Kansas, Missouri and Arkansas markets. I have seen the same results with my G3. When LTE is available, I am not on 3G for more than 5 minutes.

 

I am not seeing the issues that are being discussed. I'm not sure there is much that can be improved, everyone that has Sprint that I know have no complaints like this. 

[Yuhfhrh]

I have never seen my N5 camp on 3G when LTE is available for more than 5 minutes. This is my experience in the Kansas, Missouri and Arkansas markets. I have seen the same results with my G3. When LTE is available, I am not on 3G for more than 5 minutes.

 

I am not seeing the issues that are being discussed. I'm not sure there is much that can be improved, everyone that has Sprint that I know have no complaints like this. 

 

I guess I just have bad luck? I can count 12 people that have complained this exact problem to me around Houston and Oklahoma. I don't have these problems at all in Overland park/Kansas city, just a few places in Olathe.

 

I was just sharing an issue that's still present almost a year since the first triband devices. I keep hearing people complain about it, and I've experienced it myself in other markets. I just hope whatever needs done in these areas will get done soon, whether its ECSFB or some kind of software problem.

[Dkoellerwx]

I guess I just have bad luck? I can count 12 people that have complained this exact problem to me around Houston and Oklahoma. I don't have these problems at all in Overland park/Kansas city, just a few places in Olathe.

 

I was just sharing an issue that's still present almost a year sense the first triband devices. I keep hearing people complain about it, and I've experienced it myself in other markets. I just hope whatever needs done in these areas will get done soon, whether its ECSFB or some kind of software problem.

 

Whatever it is, I don't believe it is eCSFB related, as an airplane toggle would not have resulted in an LTE connection. Tri-Band users would have been stuck on 3G no matter what you do.

[Yuhfhrh]

Whatever it is, I don't believe it is eCSFB related, as an airplane toggle would not have resulted in an LTE connection. Tri-Band users would have been stuck on 3G no matter what you do.

 

What I've seen in Olathe is eCSFB, because you would be kicked off LTE again within a few seconds/minutes after an airplane toggle. This isn't the case in the Houston area. Any theories?

 

I'm going to go drive around to Katy and Houston sites tomorrow and watch the 'LTE enginerring' screen. I'll wait for it to scan and see what it does. Even with no background data, they are not moving up to LTE.

[travismheim]

Aside from helping to manage WiFi connections when available, doesn't the Sprint connections optimizer help with getting devices back on LTE when dropped to 3g in device known 4g areas?

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[bucdenny]

I guess I just have bad luck? I can count 12 people that have complained this exact problem to me around Houston and Oklahoma. I don't have these problems at all in Overland park/Kansas city, just a few places in Olathe.

 

I was just sharing an issue that's still present almost a year sense the first triband devices. I keep hearing people complain about it, and I've experienced it myself in other markets. I just hope whatever needs done in these areas will get done soon, whether its ECSFB or some kind of software problem.

 

I only have this problem if is there is an active data connection.  Let's say I am mapping on Sensorly and was on LTE.  Once dropped to 3G, I am stuck there until airplane mode cycle.  Only time for 3G to switch quickly to LTE is when there is no data activity.  Usually will switch to LTE within a few minutes as long you don't put your phone back into your pocket. 

 

Noticed this problem with my iPhone 6 and HTC M8.  Never experienced a 20 minute delay though.  This is in San Diego and Los Angeles market.  I believe it is possible because of different vendor hardware causing this issue?

[EvanA]

I only have this problem if is there is an active data connection. Let's say I am mapping on Sensorly and was on LTE. Once dropped to 3G, I am stuck there until airplane mode cycle. Only time for 3G to switch quickly to LTE is when there is no data activity. Usually will switch to LTE within a few minutes as long you don't put your phone back into your pocket.

 

Noticed this problems with my iPhone 6 and HTC M8. Never experience 20 minute delay though. This is in San Diego and Los Angeles market. I believe it is possible because of different vendor hardware causing this issue?

If there is an active data connection the phone will not want to interrupt it by switching to LTE.

[dedub]

None of the VZW, AT&T, Sprint, nor T-Mobile networks work that way.  So, they are all "screwups."  Sorry.

 

 

Exactly, it was a failure of the whole ecosystem.

[TheForce627]

I haven't had seen this issue since moving one of my lines to AT&T. It rarely stays on hspa for more than a minute after coming into lte coverage.

[MacinJosh]

Funny, my Nexus 5 never had scan time issues with bumping back up to LTE in Visalia. It just switched anytime it could pick up signal. My iPhone 5S was a slight bit more stubborn about LTE scanning, but never for more than 5 minutes.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone 5S using Tapatalk