Will Sprint now be moving to SIM based authentication for CDMA?

[lordsutch]

Ultimately even if CSIMs are theoretically usable on the non-c/s iPhone 5 (or any other device that Sprint doesn't want CSIMs to be used on) they could be blocked by Sprint using the device IMEI, or the Sprint provisioning setup for CDMA on those devices may just ignore the SIM entirely.

[Fraydog]

For the 5S/5C, the only SKU that is truly different is the Sprint version of the 5S/5C. Sprint has the Asia/Pacific model while the other US carriers got the NAM version which has the other US relevant LTE bands (2,4,5,13,17).

[ericdabbs]

I guess until more smartphones come out on sprint we wont know if sprint is switching all their LTE phones going forward to the CSIM system. We shall find out when the Note 3 drops on oct 4th. Maybe a sprint store rep can confirm that the Note 3 uses a CSIM and can swap between the iphone 5s and Note 3 on the fly.

 

Sent from my Motorola Photon 4G using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[ericdabbs]

You do know he's talking about the Iphone 5s/5c and explicitly stated it is not applicable to the Iphone 5 right?

 

I think what Neal's point is not about the iPhone 5S but rather about the iPhone 5.  Since the Verizon and Sprint model were the same for the iPhone 5 and since Verizon is using CSIM cards for their LTE phones including the iPhone 5, it means that it could be possible that the hardware itself can support a CSIM card (hence Sprint).  Now I don't know what it takes to maintain a CSIM card system on the phone side and the server side but I guess its worth thinking about.  

 

However I still believe that Sprint will only allow LTE phones going forward to have CSIM card capability (assuming this is true) to swap LTE phones on the fly.

[Conan Kudo]

For the 5S/5C, the only SKU that is truly different is the Sprint version of the 5S/5C. Sprint has the Asia/Pacific model while the other US carriers got the NAM version which has the other US relevant LTE bands (2,4,5,13,17).

The "Americas" model (yes, it's intended for North, Central, and South America) supports Band 25. It only lacks Band 26.

[Rocket87]

I guess until more smartphones come out on sprint we wont know if sprint is switching all their LTE phones going forward to the CSIM system. We shall find out when the Note 3 drops on oct 4th. Maybe a sprint store rep can confirm that the Note 3 uses a CSIM and can swap between the iphone 5s and Note 3 on the fly.

 

Sent from my Motorola Photon 4G using Tapatalk 2

 

 

Training and all info for the note 3 came out this afternoon. I'll watch for anything related to the SIM when I do it tomorrow.

 

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4

 

[ericdabbs]

Training and all info for the note 3 came out this afternoon. I'll watch for anything related to the SIM when I do it tomorrow. Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4

 

But do you know if the iPhone 5C and 5S is using the new CSIM authentication system?

[halcyoncmdr]

But do you know if the iPhone 5C and 5S is using the new CSIM authentication system?

 

Yes, the 5S and 5C are the first Sprint LTE devices to use a C-SIM instead of a UICC. Out store received shipment of spare C-SIM cards yesterday for support.

[ericdabbs]

Yes, the 5S and 5C are the first Sprint LTE devices to use a C-SIM instead of a UICC. Out store received shipment of spare C-SIM cards yesterday for support.

 

Awesome!!! Thanks for the confirmation.  Here is to hoping that all LTE phones from this point forward are using the new C-SIM system.

[Dfarley]

Yes, the 5S and 5C are the first Sprint LTE devices to use a C-SIM instead of a UICC. Out store received shipment of spare C-SIM cards yesterday for support.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but could I take a CSIM out of a 5S and pop it into my iPhone 5 and have the phone authenticate on the network?

[Nickel]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but could I take a CSIM out of a 5S and pop it into my iPhone 5 and have the phone authenticate on the network?

I don't think so, but I could be wrong about that.

[halcyoncmdr]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but could I take a CSIM out of a 5S and pop it into my iPhone 5 and have the phone authenticate on the network?

 

I can't say for certain, but I would imagine no simply because they are different technologies. Much like iDEN and GSM SIMs not being interchangeable despite being nearly identical.

[Rasta Cheesehead]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but could I take a CSIM out of a 5S and pop it into my iPhone 5 and have the phone authenticate on the network?

 

No iphone 5 does not support C-Sim on Sprint. as of now only 5s and 5c

Edited October 3, 2013 by Rasta Cheesehead

[Thomas L.]

Are we talking about supporting the CSIM app on the UICC? Because as far as I know we've moved from there being actual SIMs/USIMs/CSIMs to those just being applications on one UICC. SIM of course being for GSM networks, USIM being for UMTS and I guess LTE networks as well, and CSIM being for CDMA networks. I know that Sprint UICCs have SIM and USIM apps on them because USIM is needed for LTE and HSPDA international roaming and SIMs for GSM international roaming. 

[ericdabbs]

So do we know if the Note 3 uses the CSIM card system and whether you can swap between the Note 3 and the iPhone 5S/5C?

[lilotimz]

So do we know if the Note 3 uses the CSIM card system and whether you can swap between the Note 3 and the iPhone 5S/5C?

 

Nope, the Note 3 uses the same sim as the GS4. 

[ericdabbs]

Nope, the Note 3 uses the same sim as the GS4. 

 

Darn it!!!  I wonder why Sprint decided to use a USIM for the Note 3.  I hope the G2 and Nexus 5 use CSIM.

[Yuhfhrh]

Darn it!!!  I wonder why Sprint decided to use a USIM for the Note 3.  I hope the G2 and Nexus 5 use CSIM.

 

Probably the same reason they decided on single band.

[halcyoncmdr]

At this point, the USIM/CSIM debate is pretty pointless. To an end user there is no difference. Both systems still require the correct MEID and UICC ID to be active on the account for the device to function properly. In the future it may make a difference, but at this point I'd assume the only reason that CSIMs are even being used is because of a limitation in the new iPhones not supporting old USIMs properly on the network (wouldn't be the first time Apple decided to singlehandedly change something).

 

The iPhone 5s/5c are the only devices Sprint has currently using CSIMs. No other phone being released seems to use a CSIM. There is very little (if any) advantage at the moment for a CSIM-only approach to network authentication with the way the Sprint network authentication is done. If there is no advantage, why spend the money to implement it, especially in the middle of a complete physical network replacement?

[ericdabbs]

At this point, the USIM/CSIM debate is pretty pointless. To an end user there is no difference. Both systems still require the correct MEID and UICC ID to be active on the account for the device to function properly. In the future it may make a difference, but at this point I'd assume the only reason that CSIMs are even being used is because of a limitation in the new iPhones not supporting old USIMs properly on the network (wouldn't be the first time Apple decided to singlehandedly change something).

 

The iPhone 5s/5c are the only devices Sprint has currently using CSIMs. No other phone being released seems to use a CSIM. There is very little (if any) advantage at the moment for a CSIM-only approach to network authentication with the way the Sprint network authentication is done. If there is no advantage, why spend the money to implement it, especially in the middle of a complete physical network replacement?

 

I think your thinking is too short sighted.  Sure all the LTE phones except for the iPhone 5S/5C are using the USIM system but switching to the CSIM system is very beneficial going forward.  Having the ability to swap LTE devices without having to contact Sprint would be very beneficial especially for those that have multiple LTE devices.  It cuts down on the unnecessary phone or instore contact support needed just to swap LTE devices.  Since Verizon already implements the CSIM authentication system, why not Sprint?  Also in 2014, all those Sprint customers who are due for an upgrade are going to ditch their embedded SIM LTE phones (HTC Evo 4G LTE, GS3, Note 2, LGOG, iPhone 5, etc) for new LTE phones so a lot of those USIM LTE phones will be coming off the market and it would be nice if they can be on the CSIM system.  Then in 2015 those Sprint customers who have the remaining USIM LTE phones (GS4, HTC One, Note 3, etc) can be on the CSIM system.

 

At some point Sprint needs to get the ball needs to get rolling so the iPhone 5S/5C being the pioneer is a great start but following LTE phones like the Note 3, G2, Nexus 5, HTC One Max, etc need to follow suit to ensure migration and transition are progressing.

 

Besides Sprint has already committed the resources to already implement a CSIM authentication system for the iPhone 5S/5C so your plea against this is already OBE.  Now that the CSIM system has been established, why wouldn't they try to migrate all LTE phones going forward to use the new CSIM card system?  It just seems like such a no brainer to do this to keep all CDMA and LTE information on a removable SIM card and be more efficient.

[halcyoncmdr]

I think your thinking is too short sighted.  Sure all the LTE phones except for the iPhone 5S/5C are using the USIM system but switching to the CSIM system is very beneficial going forward.  Having the ability to swap LTE devices without having to contact Sprint would be very beneficial especially for those that have multiple LTE devices.  It cuts down on the unnecessary phone or instore contact support needed just to swap LTE devices.  Since Verizon already implements the CSIM authentication system, why not Sprint?  Also in 2014, all those Sprint customers who are due for an upgrade are going to ditch their embedded SIM LTE phones (HTC Evo 4G LTE, GS3, Note 2, LGOG, iPhone 5, etc) for new LTE phones so a lot of those USIM LTE phones will be coming off the market and it would be nice if they can be on the CSIM system.  Then in 2015 those Sprint customers who have the remaining USIM LTE phones (GS4, HTC One, Note 3, etc) can be on the CSIM system.

 

At some point Sprint needs to get the ball needs to get rolling so the iPhone 5S/5C being the pioneer is a great start but following LTE phones like the Note 3, G2, Nexus 5, HTC One Max, etc need to follow suit to ensure migration and transition are progressing.

 

Besides Sprint has already committed the resources to already implement a CSIM authentication system for the iPhone 5S/5C so your plea against this is already OBE.  Now that the CSIM system has been established, why wouldn't they try to migrate all LTE phones going forward to use the new CSIM card system?  It just seems like such a no brainer to do this to keep all CDMA and LTE information on a removable SIM card and be more efficient.

 

That still assumes that's the way it will end up. Sprint could just as easily require the MEID be correct on the account for the phone to authenticate properly. At this point we don't know. Sprint may not have even decided yet.

[ericdabbs]

That still assumes that's the way it will end up. Sprint could just as easily require the MEID be correct on the account for the phone to authenticate properly. At this point we don't know. Sprint may not have even decided yet.

 

Wouldn't Sprint have to know what is and what is not required for the iPhone 5S/5C? It can't be made up on the spot.   I assume it would have to work similarly to the way Verizon works.  The MEID is one of the many things that the CSIM card will store by the way.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSIM

 

CSIM Application File System

The CSIM application contains a file system with a number of parameters needed to operate on cdmaOne/CDMA2000 ("CDMA") networks. Each parameter, or a group of related parameters, is specified with a unique identifier with an implicit or explicit length, and is considered a separate Elementary File (EF). The following examples are taken from the 3GPP2 specification.^[1]

• Encryption keys, provisioned by the operator.
• Phone Number.
• Call Counts.
• Short Message Service Parameters.
• Received Short Messages (255 bytes maximum per message).
• IMSI (international mobile subscriber identifier).
• TMSI (temporary mobile subscriber identifier, for position security).
• UIMID (hardware identifier). Will be a pseudo (hashed) value if EUIMID is in use.
• EUIMID. Either short form (based on MEID) or long form (based on ICCID).
• ICCID. Present even if it is not used as EUIMID.
• MEID (hardware identifier).
• Analog (AMPS) operational parameters.
• CDMA2000 home identifiers, such as SID and NID.
• CDMA2000 zone-based registration parameters, telling the handset to register when it changes to a new operator-defined zone (SID/NID).
• CDMA2000 distance-based registration parameters, telling the handset to register when it travels a certain distance (each CDMA2000 transmitter emits its GPS location).
• Random parameters (slot cycle index) to use during CSMA access probes.
• List of services available. If a service is not indicated as available in the CSIM, the mobile equipment shall not select this service. Examples include "Call Control", "SMS", "BCMCS Broadcast", "IP Location", etc. If a service is not in this table, the handset will not provide the service.
• Multimode System Selection (MMSS) parameters.

[mark]

At this point, the USIM/CSIM debate is pretty pointless. To an end user there is no difference. Both systems still require the correct MEID and UICC ID to be active on the account for the device to function properly. In the future it may make a difference, but at this point I'd assume the only reason that CSIMs are even being used is because of a limitation in the new iPhones not supporting old USIMs properly on the network (wouldn't be the first time Apple decided to singlehandedly change something).

 

The iPhone 5s/5c are the only devices Sprint has currently using CSIMs. No other phone being released seems to use a CSIM. There is very little (if any) advantage at the moment for a CSIM-only approach to network authentication with the way the Sprint network authentication is done. If there is no advantage, why spend the money to implement it, especially in the middle of a complete physical network replacement?

 

...wonderfully nuanced thread here. Thanks. My wife and I and our youngest child are ready for new phones--with the Note 3 and the 5s at the top of our lists. Is there anything that isn't obvious...that should be thought about, when making this decision? We have no real affinity to either OS...but between reading on this site that the Note 3 is single band LTE and the 5s is dual band...and that tri-band phones are on the way...I am not qualified any more to serve as my family's fully-informed IT guy.

 

I read stuff like this: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/166356-iphone-5s-and-5c-the-best-support-for-3g-and-4g-lte-networks-worldwide

 

...and sort of understand...but then don't.

 

Any and all suggestions are welcome...

[Thomas L.]

 

Wouldn't Sprint have to know what is and what is not required for the iPhone 5S/5C? It can't be made up on the spot.   I assume it would have to work similarly to the way Verizon works.  The MEID is one of the many things that the CSIM card will store by the way.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSIM

 

CSIM Application File System

The CSIM application contains a file system with a number of parameters needed to operate on cdmaOne/CDMA2000 ("CDMA") networks. Each parameter, or a group of related parameters, is specified with a unique identifier with an implicit or explicit length, and is considered a separate Elementary File (EF). The following examples are taken from the 3GPP2 specification.^[1]

• Encryption keys, provisioned by the operator.
• Phone Number.
• Call Counts.
• Short Message Service Parameters.
• Received Short Messages (255 bytes maximum per message).
• IMSI (international mobile subscriber identifier).
• TMSI (temporary mobile subscriber identifier, for position security).
• UIMID (hardware identifier). Will be a pseudo (hashed) value if EUIMID is in use.
• EUIMID. Either short form (based on MEID) or long form (based on ICCID).
• ICCID. Present even if it is not used as EUIMID.
• MEID (hardware identifier).
• Analog (AMPS) operational parameters.
• CDMA2000 home identifiers, such as SID and NID.
• CDMA2000 zone-based registration parameters, telling the handset to register when it changes to a new operator-defined zone (SID/NID).
• CDMA2000 distance-based registration parameters, telling the handset to register when it travels a certain distance (each CDMA2000 transmitter emits its GPS location).
• Random parameters (slot cycle index) to use during CSMA access probes.
• List of services available. If a service is not indicated as available in the CSIM, the mobile equipment shall not select this service. Examples include "Call Control", "SMS", "BCMCS Broadcast", "IP Location", etc. If a service is not in this table, the handset will not provide the service.
• Multimode System Selection (MMSS) parameters.

 

Bingo - I was just coming back to this thread to post this as I've been thinking about it and I didn't even see that this had already been addressed.

 

In this case, with a UICC with the CSIM app, the MEID that's activated should be ON THE CARD, so the CARD essentially becomes the device that's activated. If they weren't doing this, there wouldn't been any reason for them to have switched to using CSIM authentication, they could have stayed with a USIM for LTE only.

 

My assumption is that this is part of Softbank's future plans to take advantage of economies of scale with devices and chipsets. If a device can use a Softbank or China Mobile GSM UICC  in Japan and China for their services and a Sprint UICC for service here, the same device might be able to be used across all three markets. That would be a big advantage.. 

[ericdabbs]

Bingo - I was just coming back to this thread to post this as I've been thinking about it and I didn't even see that this had already been addressed.

 

In this case, with a UICC with the CSIM app, the MEID that's activated should be ON THE CARD, so the CARD essentially becomes the device that's activated. If they weren't doing this, there wouldn't been any reason for them to have switched to using CSIM authentication, they could have stayed with a USIM for LTE only.

 

My assumption is that this is part of Softbank's future plans to take advantage of economies of scale with devices and chipsets. If a device can use a Softbank or China Mobile GSM UICC  in Japan and China for their services and a Sprint UICC for service here, the same device might be able to be used across all three markets. That would be a big advantage.. 

 

The big question is when is Sprint going to start making CSIM cards the default SIM card of choice for all LTE phones.  So far we hear of the iPhone 5S/5C using this system but the Note 3 and LG G2 appear to still use USIM.  I expect the HTC One max to use USIM as well.  I just hope by the time the HTC Two and GS5 come rolling around in April 2014 that they start using CSIM cards.