T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion

[kg4icg]

Thank you mr RF engineer. Please move this to another thread as it is irrelevant to this topic.

Well if you read thru the whole thread then you understand where the reference came from. I'm a trucker by day and Ham at night.

[bigsnake49]

For CDMA it might be 50W. For a 5Mhz WCDMA channel:

 

"The radiated power of base stations is dependent on the cell size, the services offered, the number of simultaneous radio connections and the distribution of handsets within the cell. Today, for compatibility calculations, one assumes a maximum effective radiated power (ERP) of 300 - 400 W. Here again the average radiated power is well below this maximum value."

 

http://www.bakom.admin.ch/themen/technologie/01178/index.html?lang=en&download=NHzLpZeg7t,lnp6I0NTU042l2Z6ln1ad1IZn4Z2qZpnO2Yuq2Z6gpJCDdX12gmym162epYbg2c_JjKbNoKSn6A--

 

So let's say 50W per 1Mhz. For a 40MHz it is 50*40=2000W.

[Conan Kudo]

For CDMA it might be 50W. For a 5Mhz WCDMA channel:

 

"The radiated power of base stations is dependent on the cell size, the services offered, the number of simultaneous radio connections and the distribution of handsets within the cell. Today, for compatibility calculations, one assumes a maximum effective radiated power (ERP) of 300 - 400 W. Here again the average radiated power is well below this maximum value."

 

http://www.bakom.admin.ch/themen/technologie/01178/index.html?lang=en&download=NHzLpZeg7t,lnp6I0NTU042l2Z6ln1ad1IZn4Z2qZpnO2Yuq2Z6gpJCDdX12gmym162epYbg2c_JjKbNoKSn6A--

 

So let's say 50W per 1Mhz. For a 40MHz it is 50*40=2000W.

Here I thought that CDMA2000 uses 20W transmissions.

 

As for WCDMA, each panel (transmitting 5 MHz channel) uses 60-80W transmissions with T-Mobile's modernized equipment. A three-panel arrangement for NSN modernized equipment used by T-Mobile is 240W, and three sectors of three panels is 720W.

[jamesinclair]

So I was reading on how AT&T is copying verizon (as always) and moving to a 24 month device renewal.

 

The comments, as per usual are "i hate them and want to go to t-mobile but tmobile coverage sucks" and "tmobile is great in the city but terrible in the country"

 

As I have zero experience with tmobile, I cant say if this is true or not.

 

I know the reason sprint has good coverage is due to roaming agreements.

 

Is tmobile doing anything to expand into rural areas, via new towers or roaming agreements?

[lilotimz]

So I was reading on how AT&T is copying verizon (as always) and moving to a 24 month device renewal.

 

The comments, as per usual are "i hate them and want to go to t-mobile but tmobile coverage sucks" and "tmobile is great in the city but terrible in the country"

 

As I have zero experience with tmobile, I cant say if this is true or not.

 

I know the reason sprint has good coverage is due to roaming agreements.

 

Is tmobile doing anything to expand into rural areas, via new towers or roaming agreements?

 

Short answer. No. They will not work much on rural areas other than replacing defective legacy equipment on an one to one ratio or where population has expanded via sub-urbanization. Their major focus is converting their existing HSPA coverage areas to PCS & LTE. Their bread and butter is their urban customers and that's not going to change anytime soon as they're an extreme value carrier by heart. 

[bigsnake49]

Here I thought that CDMA2000 uses 20W transmissions.

 

As for WCDMA, each panel (transmitting 5 MHz channel) uses 60-80W transmissions with T-Mobile's modernized equipment. A three-panel arrangement for NSN modernized equipment used by T-Mobile is 240W, and three sectors of three panels is 720W.

Average ERP is much lower than 50. 50 is max for pretty much a saturated sector.

[lynyrd65]

Any articles to back up your statements?

 

I was really hoping that post would cause AJ to either confirm or rebuke my speculation.....

[WiWavelength]

Its could also be AWS. I hear that due to lower allowed transmission power it has a reduced coverage radius compared to PCS. AWS HSPA+ or LTE on their current rural sites with their PCS spacing would produce small coverage islands of AWS with customers constantly moving in and out of service on the highway.

 

PCS HSPA+, however should be pretty close to their current EDGE network coverage with the same number of sites.

 

I'm starting to think AWS UMTS was what was holding T-Mobile back from adding new high speed coverage along highways and in rural areas. I think with the PCS refarm we may see a widescale deployment in rural areas.

 

Nope, PCS and AWS share basically the same EIRP limits.

• PCS:  base:  1640 W, 3280 W (county pop density < 100); mobile:  2 W
• AWS:  base:  1640 W, 3280 W (county pop density < 100); mobile:  1 W

Furthermore, few, if any base stations actually hit those power limits.  And while AWS mobiles are limited to 3 dB lower EIRP than are PCS mobiles, nearly all CDMA2000, W-CDMA, and LTE devices do not output anything close to 1 W.  Most are limited to around 200 mW (23 dBm).  Thus, power limits are almost entirely non factors.

 

Compared to PCS, AWS does have slightly worse free space path loss on the downlink, and some have stated that AWS experiences considerably greater environmental attenuation on the downlink.  So, those could be limiting factors.

 

As for T-Mobile, it has started constructing AWS W-CDMA only coverage in some rural areas.  And we will not likely see any PCS W-CDMA only coverage or PCS W-CDMA only overlay on existing GSM coverage anytime soon because that would present two distinct problems.  T-Mobile would have to distinguish between AWS W-CDMA and PCS W-CDMA in its coverage maps.  And a huge chunk of T-Mobile's subs would not be able to utilize new or overlay PCS W-CDMA coverage in rural areas, as their devices do not support PCS W-CDMA.

 

As such, I return to the backhaul explanation.  Circa 2005-2008, I basically left T-Mobile for dead in ever legitimately getting back into the wireless data conversation.  Having to wait for the AWS auction in 2006, then obtain infrastructure and deploy nationwide, put T-Mobile about four years behind VZW and Sprint, to a lesser degree, AT&T.  I thought that would harm T-Mobile such that it would never catch up.  But, during that time, T-Mobile was able to connect advanced backhaul to many of its urban sites.  In that way, T-Mobile used its tardiness to leapfrog the other big three.  However, as is well known around these parts, T-Mobile focused almost exclusively on urban areas, leaving most rural and highway coverage in the GSM stone age.  Those sites did not receive advanced backhaul, and that is the big difference between T-Mobile and Network Vision enhanced Sprint.

 

I was really hoping that post would cause AJ to either confirm or rebuke my speculation.....

 

I would not go so far as to say rebuked.  But consider yourself rebutted.

 

 

AJ

[Paynefanbro]

So I was reading on how AT&T is copying verizon (as always) and moving to a 24 month device renewal.

 

The comments, as per usual are "i hate them and want to go to t-mobile but tmobile coverage sucks" and "tmobile is great in the city but terrible in the country"

 

As I have zero experience with tmobile, I cant say if this is true or not.

 

I know the reason sprint has good coverage is due to roaming agreements.

 

Is tmobile doing anything to expand into rural areas, via new towers or roaming agreements?

 

But even in places where Sprint doesn't have a roaming agreement, I would say 95% of the time, Sprint will still have native EVDO whereas T-Mobile will have EDGE. 

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

 

 

Given that Sprint is adding LTE to more than 38k sites, it's not a stretch to assume that tmobile will add AT LEAST HSPA+ to all 37k sites, right?

 

https://t-mobile.jive-mobile.com/#jive-document?content=/api/core/v2/documents/5736

 

 

 

"T-Mobile will be improving approximately 37,000 cell sites over the next 18 months. These upgrades include:

 

 

Replacing copper lines with fiber optic lines

 

Adding new radios

 

Moving ground equipment to the top of towers

 

Adding new antennas

 

 

These changes will provide improved voice and data coverage and a 20 percent improvement to indoor coverage."

 

 

How much more expensive is it to upgrade a site to include AWS LTE instead of just PCS HSPA+?

 

 

Yes, eventually. However, Sprint will have their network complete on all 37k sites before Tmo will. Heck, Sprint will have 800MHz CDMA and LTE fully deployed long before Tmo gets their network upgraded. I live next to a Tmo site with EDGE only service. The day they show up and upgrade that to even HSPA+ with appropriate backhaul, then I will be a believer. Until then, I consider it just talk that they are going to all their native sites with broadband wireless.

 

Robert

 

Why would they deploy fiber to their sites if they're not going to upgrade to HSPA+ at least?

[S4GRU]

Why would they deploy fiber to their sites if they're not going to upgrade to HSPA+ at least?

 

Sites that get fiber will likely get upgraded to HSPA+.  I never said they wouldn't.  I just said it will happen eventually.

 

Robert

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

 

Why would they deploy fiber to their sites if they're not going to upgrade to HSPA+ at least?

 

 

Sites that get fiber will likely get upgraded to HSPA+. I never said they wouldn't. I just said it will happen eventually.

 

Robert

As long as Tmobile gets at least 5x5 HSPA+ on every site by Jan 2015, I'll be happy.

I don't have high expectations.

 

"T-Mobile will invest a total of $4 billion over time into network modernization and LTE deployment. Over the next two years, this represents approximately $1.4 billion in incremental network investment"

http://newsroom.t-mobile.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=251624&p=irol-newsArticle_pf&ID=1805918&highlight=

 

They got $3bil cash from ATT breakup and $2.35bil from towers but they're only investing $1.4bil extra?

They deserve to fail.

[Fraydog]

 

 

 

 

I wonder if that number didn't go up after the MetroPCS merger. I think most of that money would be going to urban areas.

 

 

Why would they deploy fiber to their sites if they're not going to upgrade to HSPA+ at least?

 

 

 

 

Sites that get fiber will likely get upgraded to HSPA+. I never said they wouldn't. I just said it will happen eventually.

 

 

 

Robert

As long as Tmobile gets at least 5x5 HSPA+ on every site by Jan 2015, I'll be happy.

 

I don't have high expectations.

 

 

 

"T-Mobile will invest a total of $4 billion over time into network modernization and LTE deployment. Over the next two years, this represents approximately $1.4 billion in incremental network investment"

 

http://newsroom.t-mobile.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=251624&p=irol-newsArticle_pf&ID=1805918&highlight=

 

 

 

They got $3bil cash from ATT breakup and $2.35bil from towers but they're only investing $1.4bil extra?

 

They deserve to fail.

I think that number for the network modernization investment went up with the metroPCS merger. Granted, most of that money is going to urban areas.

[iansltx]

Here I thought that CDMA2000 uses 20W transmissions.

 

As for WCDMA, each panel (transmitting 5 MHz channel) uses 60-80W transmissions with T-Mobile's modernized equipment. A three-panel arrangement for NSN modernized equipment used by T-Mobile is 240W, and three sectors of three panels is 720W.

 

Power usage != transmitted power. And radiated power isn't additive if it's facing in another direction, or out-of-band compared to what the phone is actually picking up.

[z250kid]

Thought this was interesting  http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2416363,00.asp

[S4GRU]

Tmo LTE is now active in many places in ABQ. I have been doing some Sensorly mapping today. I have been averaging in the high teens, occasionally hitting around 30Mbps. Pings between 40-70ms most of the time.

 

I hit this speed test on Montgomery near I-25. I've never even been this high on even Verizon before. It hit as high as 56Mbps before settling just under 50.

 

 

Robert from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[khammondnm]

I think that's great for T-Mobile in Abq, but I never really had any problems with their hspa+ network, I was always very satisfied to get 3-5 mpbs, what wasn't great is dropping down to edge when you leave the city and losing any ability to use the internet.  I know it is talked on here like mad, but until T-Mobile upgrades rural sites it is just not something I am ever willing to go back to.

[lilotimz]

[S4GRU]

I think that's great for T-Mobile in Abq, but I never really had any problems with their hspa+ network, I was always very satisfied to get 3-5 mpbs, what wasn't great is dropping down to edge when you leave the city and losing any ability to use the internet. I know it is talked on here like mad, but until T-Mobile upgrades rural sites it is just not something I am ever willing to go back to.

 

I agree. Wholeheartedly. Tmo is just a thing I get to play with when I head into the city.

 

Robert from Note 2 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[milan03]

Tmo LTE is now active in many places in ABQ. I have been doing some Sensorly mapping today. I have been averaging in the high teens, occasionally hitting around 30Mbps. Pings between 40-70ms most of the time.

 

I hit this speed test on Montgomery near I-25. I've never even been this high on even Verizon before. It hit as high as 56Mbps before settling just under 50.

 

uploadfromtaptalk1371419444380.jpg

 

Robert from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Yup, ABQ is a 10Mhz market, I'm still trying to figure out if their LTE is A or F block there. Wish you've had a TouchWiz based phone, impossible to tell on a Nexus. 

[Conan Kudo]

Yup, ABQ is a 10Mhz market, I'm still trying to figure out if their LTE is A or F block there. Wish you've had a TouchWiz based phone, impossible to tell on a Nexus. 

Unless you can send commands to the baseband and query for the EARFCN for downlink.

[strumgewr]

Just saw these new panels put up. They don't look like any at&t or verizon I've ever seen. Is this t-mobile?

[milan03]

Just saw these new panels put up. They don't look like any at&t or verizon I've ever seen. Is this t-mobile?

Definitely not T-Mobile's

[Conan Kudo]

Definitely not T-Mobile's

I recognize those panels. They're not cellular, 700MHz, AWS, or PCS antennas. They are specialized ones. Probably for FM or satellite.

[kckid]

Tmo LTE is now active in many places in ABQ. I have been doing some Sensorly mapping today. I have been averaging in the high teens, occasionally hitting around 30Mbps. Pings between 40-70ms most of the time.

 

I hit this speed test on Montgomery near I-25. I've never even been this high on even Verizon before. It hit as high as 56Mbps before settling just under 50.

 

uploadfromtaptalk1371419444380.jpg

 

Robert from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Robert,

 

Are you running stock Andoid 4.2.2 or a different ROM?