Network Vision Explained

[digiblur]

Very cool. I know a few iden only sites that could definitely use some cdma on them. Middle of town with fringe signal standing outside and there is an iden tower across the street.

 

Sent from my C64 w/Epyx FastLoad cartridge

[bcltoys]

 

 

Not likely. Sprint doesn't own sites, they lease them. Most likely the tower owner will just try to get another carrier to lease the site. I doubt they will take it down because it's an asset. There may already be another carrier on that tower.

 

Robert via Galaxy Nexus using Forum Runner

No other carriers on this mono poll and i think it is a repeater site. If Verizon was to put Lte on this site it would fill in a big hole that they have here.

[Josh]

Well, from what I can tell its more complicated than what everyone is looking at right now for why they are only slowly considering the iDEN towers to convert to CDMA/LTE. First the money issue, the success of the NV program depends on their ability to shed costs, bottom line: they haven't turned a profit in years and investors will not invest in a company with so much debt that is not strengthening financially. Once they have completed the NV, every current site will use less power and provide better coverage, this will save them money, and with the decommissioning of the iDen towers should decrease their bottom line enough to turn a operating profit. (they have been free cash flow positive the last year, but still posted a loss)

 

Don't forget their plans to also start offering their CDMA/LTE over their ESMR spectrum in the 800Mhz band. I am sure that they want to see what the potential gains from this additional spectrum are before they go and the additional costs of leasing more towers. Once they finally get everything running with the 800Mhz spectrum, they will have a handle on what their coverage situation is, and financially they will be able to make decisions that will benefit both consumers and investors.

 

I know that others in this section have been talking mainly about where there is iDen cell sites, and no CDMA coverage, and I understand that those should be top priority for sprint! But I do not think they are stupid (I know arguable), they have more information than us, and I believe they have planned for this.

In my opinion, they probably had the leases worked out under old terms with nextel when the company was planning expansion and thought the economic return on those sights would be much greater than what it ended up being. That being said, they probably are paying more than they want to for most of the sites. Allowing them to be shut down and removing the equipment from the site might actually give them more leverage over the site owner for leasing the site for CDMA/LTE operations. If the lease runs out, sprint would remove the equipment and leave the site (sprint would have to remove all the equipment anyway before upgrading for network vision), which if they were the only ones on the lease, leaves the tower operator with no income for the site. They would be in a better position to either re-negotiate new terms for the tower, or choose another location/company to save the company money, and be more competitive.

 

The 100 mentioned sites are most probably for spectrum protection (they must offer service in a certain % of an area to keep their license) and not really for adding service. I think they want to wait to start adding towers till after they are done with NV (5 Billion is a large cost, not wanting to add more) and they want to see what their footprint ends up being once the ESMR spectrum is added. From what a previous post was showing, the addition of 800Mhz spectrum on the current PCS towers will make what was barely passable areas/ fringe coverage areas: good coverage, and good coverage areas: GREAT!

 

I am excited to see what they can come up with at the end of it all, and I believe that eventually all areas that were once nextel-only (and hopefully some new sites), will eventually be added to NV... just at the right price.

[calebg]

Well, from what I can tell its more complicated than what everyone is looking at right now for why they are only slowly considering the iDEN towers to convert to CDMA/LTE. First the money issue, the success of the NV program depends on their ability to shed costs, bottom line: they haven't turned a profit in years and investors will not invest in a company with so much debt that is not strengthening financially. Once they have completed the NV, every current site will use less power and provide better coverage, this will save them money, and with the decommissioning of the iDen towers should decrease their bottom line enough to turn a operating profit. (they have been free cash flow positive the last year, but still posted a loss)

 

Don't forget their plans to also start offering their CDMA/LTE over their ESMR spectrum in the 800Mhz band. I am sure that they want to see what the potential gains from this additional spectrum are before they go and the additional costs of leasing more towers. Once they finally get everything running with the 800Mhz spectrum, they will have a handle on what their coverage situation is, and financially they will be able to make decisions that will benefit both consumers and investors.

 

I know that others in this section have been talking mainly about where there is iDen cell sites, and no CDMA coverage, and I understand that those should be top priority for sprint! But I do not think they are stupid (I know arguable), they have more information than us, and I believe they have planned for this.

In my opinion, they probably had the leases worked out under old terms with nextel when the company was planning expansion and thought the economic return on those sights would be much greater than what it ended up being. That being said, they probably are paying more than they want to for most of the sites. Allowing them to be shut down and removing the equipment from the site might actually give them more leverage over the site owner for leasing the site for CDMA/LTE operations. If the lease runs out, sprint would remove the equipment and leave the site (sprint would have to remove all the equipment anyway before upgrading for network vision), which if they were the only ones on the lease, leaves the tower operator with no income for the site. They would be in a better position to either re-negotiate new terms for the tower, or choose another location/company to save the company money, and be more competitive.

 

The 100 mentioned sites are most probably for spectrum protection (they must offer service in a certain % of an area to keep their license) and not really for adding service. I think they want to wait to start adding towers till after they are done with NV (5 Billion is a large cost, not wanting to add more) and they want to see what their footprint ends up being once the ESMR spectrum is added. From what a previous post was showing, the addition of 800Mhz spectrum on the current PCS towers will make what was barely passable areas/ fringe coverage areas: good coverage, and good coverage areas: GREAT!

 

I am excited to see what they can come up with at the end of it all, and I believe that eventually all areas that were once nextel-only (and hopefully some new sites), will eventually be added to NV... just at the right price.

 

All good points and make a lot of sense. But, for me I think a lot of it is just wishful thinking - I think about the potential. If only money weren't an issue- imagine converting let's say 1/3 of all Nextel towers to CDMA/LTE (completely unrealistic I know). You would have a network that would likely surpass VZ but with Sprint's pricing! The problem is the more rural parts of America are primarily controlled by the Big Two. Many Americans don't have access to Sprint coverage and even more don't have access to T-Mobile. So for those that don't live in a big city or the suburbs, they have to put up with AT&V (see what I did there?). And now that VZ has unveiled their new family data plans, I see that prices are only going in one direction But I guess I'm getting off topic. Hopefully Sprint will, through a combination of the ESMR and either utilizing existing Nextel towers or re-leasing the towers later, be able to create a more robust network with greater coverage. Hopefully it's not just wishful thinking..

[WiWavelength]

All good points and make a lot of sense. But, for me I think a lot of it is just wishful thinking - I think about the potential. If only money weren't an issue- imagine converting let's say 1/3 of all Nextel towers to CDMA/LTE (completely unrealistic I know). You would have a network that would likely surpass VZ but with Sprint's pricing!

 

Nope, not even close.

 

First, Nextel has relatively little rural coverage compared to all of the rural coverage that VZW has purchased. So, even if Sprint were to retain the entire Nextel national network, it would not even remotely meet or exceed VZW's footprint.

 

Second, the vast majority of the Nextel national network and the Sprint national network overlap. Only ~1000 sites still provide coverage that is decidedly unique to Nextel iDEN. Thus, even your proposed one third of sites would be tremendous overkill, would result in expensive redundancy.

 

Unfortunately, the Sprint web site is down right now, so I cannot post coverage maps.

 

AJ

[calebg]

Nope, not even close.

 

First, Nextel has relatively little rural coverage compared to all of the rural coverage that VZW has purchased. So, even if Sprint were to retain the entire Nextel national network, it would not even remotely meet or exceed VZW's footprint.

 

Second, the vast majority of the Nextel national network and the Sprint national network overlap. Only ~1000 sites still provide coverage that is decidedly unique to Nextel iDEN. Thus, even your proposed one third of sites would be tremendous overkill, would result in expensive redundancy.

 

Unfortunately, the Sprint web site is down right now, so I cannot post coverage maps.

 

AJ

 

Well I can only speak for myself and my area. Around here Nextel towers outnumber Sprint probably 5 to 1. But then again I live in the South and iDen is still used pretty extensively between Nextel and SouthernLINC. I'm sure things are different in other parts of the country.

[WiWavelength]

Well I can only speak for myself and my area. Around here Nextel towers outnumber Sprint probably 5 to 1. But then again I live in the South and iDen is still used pretty extensively between Nextel and SouthernLINC. I'm sure things are different in other parts of the country.

 

Indeed. However, this common perception can be problematic. The national network in your local area may not be representative of the national network as a whole. Moreover, your local area may be of utmost importance to you, but it is not necessarily of utmost importance to a national carrier. While it may not be reassuring to think of you or your area as potentially inconsequential, you have to look at the overall big picture in order to see decisions through the eyes of a national carrier.

 

AJ

[calebg]

Yes, I'm aware that Sprint has to consider the network as a whole and I was not implying that my area is "representative of the national network"- quite the opposite. I just hope that Sprint is concerned about more than just cutting costs but ALSO increasing coverage whether that be through converting some Nextel towers in strategic iDen only areas to CDMA/LTE or through leasing new towers after they decommission iDen for good. Obviously cutting costs is a big deal for someone in Sprint's financial position but they also HAVE to be competitive to survive in the long-term and coverage could be a differentiator between them and T-Mobile and to a lesser degree AT&T.

[pyroscott]

The only reasons that Verizon acquired and continues to maintain their rural coverage is for marketing and the roaming fees they collect from sprint. Sprint is focused on maintaining unlimited data. They offer roaming on Verizon's network, thereby extending their network into rural areas.

 

Sprint will absolutely not profit by quickly expanding their network. Sorry to the Nextel customers, but the writing has been on the wall for years that there was going to be an end. You're going to have to find a new outlet for saying "10-4" and "niner" I remember a day where CB radios were cool to have in your vehicle. (although that might have been because I grew up in redneck, MN, USA) what more can someone ask for than ETF free exit from a carrier that is not offering services in the area?

 

P.S. Nextel coverage has always been horrible in my area, while Sprint is as good or better than Verizon or AT&T.

 

Sent from my CM9 Toro using Forum Runner

[digiblur]

Here's an example of one of those 100 that need to be done. Sprint had initially stated a future tower was going to be built in the very southern portion of this roaming pocket, but they pulled it and never built it when the NV plans came out . Not sure how much it would have helped the issue here though. The iDen only tower is located near a very busy highway that sees quite a bit of traffic and commuters. I wish that would utilize the iDen only towers covering the northeast portion of this map as well but that's wishful thinking.

 

When the nextel network is shut down, this tower will probably sit idle as AT&T, Tmobile, and VZW have towers just south of this location. Seems like they could negotiate a pretty good deal on this with that fact.

 

 

[jefbal99]

Here's an example of one of those 100 that need to be done. Sprint had initially stated a future tower was going to be built in the very southern portion of this roaming pocket, but they pulled it and never built it when the NV plans came out . Not sure how much it would have helped the issue here though. The iDen only tower is located near a very busy highway that sees quite a bit of traffic and commuters. I wish that would utilize the iDen only towers covering the northeast portion of this map as well but that's wishful thinking.

 

When the nextel network is shut down, this tower will probably sit idle as AT&T, Tmobile, and VZW have towers just south of this location. Seems like they could negotiate a pretty good deal on this with that fact.

 

 

 

Northern Michigan is littered with places that Nextel towers are needed to fill in coverage, here is a great example, Alpena.

 

Sprint Coverage

alpena_sprint by jefbal99_, on Flickr

 

Nextel Coverage

alpena_nextel by jefbal99_, on Flickr

[S4GRU]

 

Northern Michigan is littered with places that Nextel towers are needed to fill in coverage' date=' here is a great example, Alpena.

[/quote']

 

It looks like to me that Aplena iDEN may have the same number of sites as CDMA. It just illustrates the propagation benefits of 800 over 1900.

 

Robert via Kindle Fire using Forum Runner

[jefbal99]

It looks like to me that Aplena iDEN may have the same number of sites as CDMA. It just illustrates the propagation benefits of 800 over 1900.

 

Robert via Kindle Fire using Forum Runner

 

Seriously? I'm going to try and find a tower list. The coverage maps on sprint.com for northern Michigan are littered with what appears to be a single tower in the middle of the town, and a purple splooge around it. However, the Nextel coverage is almost 100%. I'm wondering with the Canadian border if these towers will get the voice and LTE carriers in 800MHz

[Fraydog]

That Alpena tower might get similar CDMA coverage to the existing iDEN tower, probably better given 800 CDMA flies further. Sprint is also using RRH's so that will also cause signal to fly further.

[pyroscott]

I thought that AJ established that even with the better propigation of 800mhz vs 1900mhz, iDEN usable signal propigation was similar to what you would get with 1900mhz CDMA.

[Josh]

@jefbal99:

On the boarder with Canada, I am not sure what the re-banding plan is for their SMR spectrum. As far as I know they use iDen in Canada, but I have no idea if they are going to try to align their spectrum with the US. I believe I read that the FCC had made a deal with mexico about aligning the spectrum so that they could eventually deploy 800Mhz LTE near the Mexican boarder, but I do not have any details about it. If they are not able to make some type of deal with the Canadians, they might not be able to deploy the LTE or CDMA in the 800Mhz band anywhere it might interfere with Canadian airwaves.

 

The smaller towns that you were talking about that only have 1 Sprint CDMA site will most likely get more support with network vision, but might stay only PCS at least for now. The larger towns like Buffalo, NY and others that share a boarder with Canada will suffer greater from the lack of additional spectrum and lack of propagation that the SMR spectrum would bring those cities. They probably already have a plan for those boarder towns on both boarders, that follow any necessary rules, and still give the best possible experience.

[WiWavelength]

I thought that AJ established that even with the better propigation of 800mhz vs 1900mhz, iDEN usable signal propigation was similar to what you would get with 1900mhz CDMA.

 

As the saying goes, you can't make a silk purse from a pig's ear...

 

 

AJ

[pyroscott]

 

As the saying goes' date=' you can't make a silk purse from a pig's ear...

 

 

AJ[/quote']

 

Well if you tried, my dog would probably be a purse snatcher....

[bcltoys]

No other carriers on this mono poll and i think it is a repeater site. If Verizon was to put Lte on this site it would fill in a big hole that they have here.

These are a couple of pic of this mono pole located in Earleville Md 21919

[NiteSnow]

@jefbal99:

On the boarder with Canada, I am not sure what the re-banding plan is for their SMR spectrum. As far as I know they use iDen in Canada, but I have no idea if they are going to try to align their spectrum with the US. I believe I read that the FCC had made a deal with mexico about aligning the spectrum so that they could eventually deploy 800Mhz LTE near the Mexican boarder, but I do not have any details about it. If they are not able to make some type of deal with the Canadians, they might not be able to deploy the LTE or CDMA in the 800Mhz band anywhere it might interfere with Canadian airwaves.

 

The smaller towns that you were talking about that only have 1 Sprint CDMA site will most likely get more support with network vision, but might stay only PCS at least for now. The larger towns like Buffalo, NY and others that share a boarder with Canada will suffer greater from the lack of additional spectrum and lack of propagation that the SMR spectrum would bring those cities. They probably already have a plan for those boarder towns on both boarders, that follow any necessary rules, and still give the best possible experience.

 

It's simple 1900 facing the Canadian boarder 800 Facing the US. 1900 will be easier to keep from jumping over into Canada (as far at least) and it'll provide just enough coverage. 800 Mhz will go as far as it possibly can in the opposite direction.

[Josh]

It's simple 1900 facing the Canadian boarder 800 Facing the US. 1900 will be easier to keep from jumping over into Canada (as far at least) and it'll provide just enough coverage. 800 Mhz will go as far as it possibly can in the opposite direction.

 

I do not believe it is quite that simple. There are regulations that do not let interfering signals operate within the same spectrum band. I believe the mexican deal to align the 800Mhz band near the boarder is for something like 68 miles on either side of the boarder. If the canadians do not allow for re-banding and follow a similar pattern, there might not be allowed to be any 800Mhz spectrum used for CDMA or LTE within the 68 miles of boarder. This would leave any town that was remotely close to canada to rely on only the 1900Mhz PCS band.

I do wish it was as simple as pointing the radio heads away from canada and calling it a day, but that is not how things work sadly.

[WiWavelength]

It's simple 1900 facing the Canadian boarder 800 Facing the US. 1900 will be easier to keep from jumping over into Canada (as far at least) and it'll provide just enough coverage. 800 Mhz will go as far as it possibly can in the opposite direction.

 

...and reflect off of mountains and buildings back into Canada. It is not that simple. It is called multipath. Look into it.

 

AJ

[NiteSnow]

...and reflect off of mountains and buildings back into Canada. It is not that simple. It is called multipath. Look into it.

 

AJ

 

Hmm, I guess I didn't realize that that could happen. How does Sprint have iDEN operating in that area then?

[jefbal99]

Hmm, I guess I didn't realize that that could happen. How does Sprint have iDEN operating in that area then?

 

Both Canada and the US currently utilize iDen in the same spectrum so they don't interfere. With the US re-farming the 800Mhz band, interference will occur.

[S4GRU]

Hmm, I guess I didn't realize that that could happen. How does Sprint have iDEN operating in that area then?

 

They coordinate channels and usage across the border. Nextel cannot use every channel in their national spectrum allocation next to the border. Some are reserved for the Canadian licensee to use in their border zone.

 

Robert