How much bandwidth does a single LTE site have?

[4ktvs]

The LTE sites yes even the the 10x10 Verizon ones can get over loaded. There is a tower near my area that got hit by sub 500kbs down/up. No I did not use a lot of data and yes after going back home I got way better speeds. AT&T 3G/"fake 4G"/HSPA+ was getting about 3mbs down and 1mbs up in the same spot. ( They had a AT&T wifi hotspot too, so that could be why.) I used to think LTE would never really get so slow due to high useage, well it does and it will. I don't even live in NYC and I am seeing issues like this come up more and more. I am glad to be moving into the sticks soon with a LTE tower near by to give me 25+ down and 20+ up. That won't likely go down any time soon, because we are talking about guys with 2-10 acres. If you call BS on this who think VZ is all that here is a video:

[S4GRU]

The LTE sites yes even the the 10x10 Verizon ones can get over loaded. There is a tower near my area that got hit by sub 500kbs down/up. No I did not use a lot of data and yes after going back home I got way better speeds. AT&T 3G/"fake 4G"/HSPA+ was getting about 3mbs down and 1mbs up in the same spot. ( They had a AT&T wifi hotspot too, so that could be why.) I used to think LTE would never really get so slow due to high useage, well it does and it will. I don't even live in NYC and I am seeing issues like this come up more and more. I am glad to be moving into the sticks soon with a LTE tower near by to give me 25+ down and 20+ up. That won't likely go down any time soon, because we are talking about guys with 2-10 acres. If you call BS on this who think VZ is all that here is a video:

 

I have a VZW LTE smartphone and hotspot. Speeds drop down to 3-6 Mbps during peak times in Los Alamos, Española and Santa Fe even with a strong signal. VZW will need to start deploying more LTE carriers (or increase site density) soon to keep speeds up.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 on Tapatalk

[Shahal]

I wonder how bogged down the LTE will be around where I work. Atm the 3g is so bogged down due the huge cluster of constantly full hotels that I can barely pull 100 - 200 kbps on a good day. Maybe I'll be the only one in the area with an LTE phone for awhile since most people around here tend to use a carrier that piggybacks off of sprints 3g.

 

Sent from my rooted LTEVO running CM10.

 

 

[S4GRU]

I wonder how bogged down the LTE will be around where I work. Atm the 3g is so bogged down due the huge cluster of constantly full hotels that I can barely pull 100 - 200 kbps on a good day. Maybe I'll be the only one in the area with an LTE phone for awhile since most people around here tend to use a carrier that piggybacks off of sprints 3g.

 

Sent from my rooted LTEVO running CM10.

 

Sprint has more options to deploy more LTE carriers than VZW can. Also Sprint has half the customers. And Sprint LTE network is much denser than VZW. I'm not too worried about Sprint LTE capacity.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 on Tapatalk

 

 

[Shahal]

 

Sprint has more options to deploy more LTE carriers than VZW can. Also Sprint has half the customers. And Sprint LTE network is much denser than VZW. I'm not too worried about Sprint LTE capacity.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 on Tapatalk

 

Well that's great to know. I really have high hopes for Sprint LTE. LTE will pretty much be overkill for my data needs. I'd be perfectly happy with 1 mbps down consistently. The prospect of having many times that is exciting to say the least.

 

Sent from my rooted LTEVO running CM10.

 

 

[EvoMania]

The LTE sites yes even the the 10x10 Verizon ones can get over loaded. There is a tower near my area that got hit by sub 500kbs down/up. No I did not use a lot of data and yes after going back home I got way better speeds. AT&T 3G/"fake 4G"/HSPA+ was getting about 3mbs down and 1mbs up in the same spot. ( They had a AT&T wifi hotspot too, so that could be why.) I used to think LTE would never really get so slow due to high useage, well it does and it will. I don't even live in NYC and I am seeing issues like this come up more and more. I am glad to be moving into the sticks soon with a LTE tower near by to give me 25+ down and 20+ up. That won't likely go down any time soon, because we are talking about guys with 2-10 acres. If you call BS on this who think VZ is all that here is a video:

 

Whats the background song? Makes the video seems a bit ominous to me but I can hardly believe that is happening with a strong LTE signal. Verizon needs more carriers and it needs them now.

[pyroscott]

 

Whats the background song? Makes the video seems a bit ominous to me but I can hardly believe that is happening with a strong LTE signal. Verizon needs more carriers and it needs them now.

 

They can't add carriers. They only have 10x10 mhz in the upper 700 they use for lte. The best they can do is add more sites and adjust downtilt of the existing sites to split the cells.

[jefbal99]

They can't add carriers. They only have 10x10 mhz in the upper 700 they use for lte. The best they can do is add more sites and adjust downtilt of the existing sites to split the cells.

 

Do any Verizon phones support LTE in 850Mhz or PCS? They could deploy a carrier there

[pyroscott]

 

Do any Verizon phones support LTE in 850Mhz or PCS? They could deploy a carrier there

The iPhone 5 is the only one I know of.

[WiWavelength]

Do any Verizon phones support LTE in 850Mhz or PCS? They could deploy a carrier there

 

Off the top of my head, iPhone 5 is the lone exception. All other VZW LTE devices are LTE 750 only.

 

AJ

[jefbal99]

The iPhone 5 is the only one I know of.

 

Then until Beg Red gets its AWS up and devices to support it, they need to increase tower density.

[pyroscott]

 

Then until Beg Red gets its AWS up and devices to support it, they need to increase tower density.

 

Yep, they pushed so hard to get everyone converted to lte devices, and now they are feeling the pain of not completing a network vision type overhaul.

[iansltx]

Yep, they pushed so hard to get everyone converted to lte devices, and now they are feeling the pain of not completing a network vision type overhaul.

 

To be fair, Verizon was the last to break 2.5 Mbps in the mobile context of any of the "big four", since Sprint had WiMAX and both AT&T and T-Mobile had 7.2 Mbps HSPA (5 Mbps usable), with T-Mobile launching 21 Mbps HSPA+ in some areas before Verizon started with LTE.In urban areas, Verizon had to do *something* to deal with capacity issues, and fast. Plus, only half of Verizon's customers are in the top 50 MSAs, so hitting larger areas with a single tower does those customers a lot of good.

 

That said, in a mobile context, I'd hate to be the guy in the hot seat charged with building for capacity in a 700MHz network where you're limited to dropping the power output on existing sites and adding new ones to fill in the new gaps because you have to hold everything else constant (one 10x10 carrier, with zero ability to refarm 3G or add AWS because no one's devices, iPhone excluded, support it).

 

Hmm...any bets on whether Verizon launches a 5x5 LTE carrier in PCS in areas where they're particularly congested AND have a lot of iPhone 5 users? AT&T will probably do this first, but for all the hand-waving that VZW has done about not touching their PCS spectrum for LTE until 2015, I don't believe them.

[S4GRU]

 

To be fair, Verizon was the last to break 2.5 Mbps in the mobile context of any of the "big four", since Sprint had WiMAX and both AT&T and T-Mobile had 7.2 Mbps HSPA (5 Mbps usable), with T-Mobile launching 21 Mbps HSPA+ in some areas before Verizon started with LTE.In urban areas, Verizon had to do *something* to deal with capacity issues, and fast. Plus, only half of Verizon's customers are in the top 50 MSAs, so hitting larger areas with a single tower does those customers a lot of good.

 

That said, in a mobile context, I'd hate to be the guy in the hot seat charged with building for capacity in a 700MHz network where you're limited to dropping the power output on existing sites and adding new ones to fill in the new gaps because you have to hold everything else constant (one 10x10 carrier, with zero ability to refarm 3G or add AWS because no one's devices, iPhone excluded, support it).

 

Hmm...any bets on whether Verizon launches a 5x5 LTE carrier in PCS in areas where they're particularly congested AND have a lot of iPhone 5 users? AT&T will probably do this first, but for all the hand-waving that VZW has done about not touching their PCS spectrum for LTE until 2015, I don't believe them.

 

All great points. But all this points to the fact that Verizon's LTE network is not as perfect as the tech industry and many customers think. It is more reputation than fact that causes people to think that VZW LTE is infallible.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 on Tapatalk

 

 

[lordsutch]

Verizon wouldn't be the first carrier to refarm their network just to cater to iPhone users. I guess the question is where the cost/benefit sweet spot is: shrinking 700 cells to benefit all phones, or overlaying 1900 for just a few devices and also having the PR hit (and risk of offending Tim Cook) of offering lower speeds to your iPhone customers than WP/Android.

[Shahal]

Wow I never realized verizon was in such a pinch. Once the NV/LTE rollout is a bit more completed Sprint just may be top dog for a while.

 

Sent from my rooted LTEVO running CM10.

 

 

[iansltx]

Verizon wouldn't be the first carrier to refarm their network just to cater to iPhone users. I guess the question is where the cost/benefit sweet spot is: shrinking 700 cells to benefit all phones' date=' or overlaying 1900 for just a few devices and also having the PR hit (and risk of offending Tim Cook) of offering lower speeds to your iPhone customers than WP/Android.[/quote']

 

The iPhone that both VZW and AT&T (two different models) both support at least PCS A-F LTE.

[irev210]

All great points. But all this points to the fact that Verizon's LTE network is not as perfect as the tech industry and many customers think. It is more reputation than fact that causes people to think that VZW LTE is infallible.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 on Tapatalk

 

Well, Verizon is the standard for under promising and over delivering.

 

It was an interesting choice that they decided not to go with RRU's. It seems like they don't need the extra coverage and don't want the extra capex/opex.

 

I think the true test for Verizon (which they nailed with EVDO, relatively speaking) is to see how they add capacity as load increases.

 

Their first step was coverage, second step will be adding capacity.

 

It truly is amazing to see VZN LTE speeds take a dive though. But, as you say many many times, the average customer doesn't care about 3mbit or 30mbit... they just want it to work wherever they are - and for that, verizon scores points.

[EvoMania]

Well, Verizon is the standard for under promising and over delivering.

 

It was an interesting choice that they decided not to go with RRU's. It seems like they don't need the extra coverage and don't want the extra capex/opex.

 

I think the true test for Verizon (which they nailed with EVDO, relatively speaking) is to see how they add capacity as load increases.

 

Their first step was coverage, second step will be adding capacity.

 

It truly is amazing to see VZN LTE speeds take a dive though. But, as you say many many times, the average customer doesn't care about 3mbit or 30mbit... they just want it to work wherever they are - and for that, verizon scores points.

 

I almost feel sorry for Verizon customers. It almost seems as if their speeds will slow to a crawl but Verizon can at least increase capacity by coverting more towers. Even if it doesn't have a long term solution.

[WiWavelength]

Hmm...any bets on whether Verizon launches a 5x5 LTE carrier in PCS in areas where they're particularly congested AND have a lot of iPhone 5 users? AT&T will probably do this first, but for all the hand-waving that VZW has done about not touching their PCS spectrum for LTE until 2015, I don't believe them.

 

If VZW does refarm for LTE prior to its AWS 2100+1700 MHz deployment, it could be as much, if not more Cellular 850 MHz than PCS 1900 MHz. VZW's PCS holdings are much smaller compared to those of AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile. VZW has a lot of single license 10 MHz PCS markets. But VZW is the largest Cellular license holder, and every Cellular license is 25 MHz bandwidth -- with at least 20 MHz of that contiguous.

 

AJ

[irev210]

I almost feel sorry for Verizon customers. It almost seems as if their speeds will slow to a crawl but Verizon can at least increase capacity by coverting more towers.

 

Well given their past performance addressing capacity issues, I doubt it will slow to a crawl (ala sprint) but it's not the verizon die-hards who post up screen shots of 73mbit.

 

3mbit low latency will satisfy 99.9% of their customers. I am sure they will continue to add capacity around existing sites as speeds slow down.

 

It will be interesting to see if they add a PCS or cellular LTE carrier and offload iphone 5 users onto it.

 

edit: update to reflect AJ's solid point about VZN's cellular holdings.

[S4GRU]

Well, Verizon is the standard for under promising and over delivering.

 

It was an interesting choice that they decided not to go with RRU's. It seems like they don't need the extra coverage and don't want the extra capex/opex.

 

I think the true test for Verizon (which they nailed with EVDO, relatively speaking) is to see how they add capacity as load increases.

 

Their first step was coverage, second step will be adding capacity.

 

It truly is amazing to see VZN LTE speeds take a dive though. But, as you say many many times, the average customer doesn't care about 3mbit or 30mbit... they just want it to work wherever they are - and for that, verizon scores points.

 

I agree that 3Mbps is more than sufficient for most smartphone use. However, if there is any customer who is a braggard about their LTE speeds, it's the VZW customer.

 

VZW has options. But they are all painful. VZW 750 LTE provides less coverage than their 850 CDMA in my observations here in New Mexico. And that is with their downtilt at virtually zero. You can see on VZW sites that LTE panels are less steeply angled than the CDMA panels.

Option #1

...in an area where they have already installed on all their 850 sites, they can start cell splitting. But this means adding base stations and new site leases. This adds up to a lot of money and takes some time. But if they are really watching closely the trends, they may be able to keep up. But most likely they will be behind trying to add capacity through cell splitting and the customer experience will suffer as they try to get new sites deployed. This is expensive and less than ideal. It takes 6 months to a year to plan, permit and build a new site. In a high barrier to entry market, dealing with NIMBYs, it can take years!

 

In VZW's few 1900 markets, they can probably still add a lot of LTE 750 capacity because they have greater site density. Although it will be an engineering interference challenge taking LTE 750 to PCS density, it definitely can be done.

 

Option #2

...start deploying LTE AWS. This is a good option that can start now. However, VZW still is not selling AWS devices. I have been bewildered why VZW did not start selling AWS LTE devices in Mid 2012. They could have. AT&T has. T-Mobile even has the GS3 and Nexus 4 capable of AWS LTE and they do not even have any markets running yet.

 

VZW was probably trying to keep AWS LTE devices down as long as possible trying not to give other companies any advantage in LTE bands supported. If so, that bet is now backfiring on them.

 

But at any rate, Verizon could be adding AWS LTE now as hotspot overlays throughout their network. It is not known when VZW will ever start pushing AWS LTE on its devices. But they need to start selling them soon. AWS LTE is not going to provide any short term relief for LTE 750 capacity issues. It will take a good year, and if VZW does it right.

 

Another thing to this though...we aren't sure how easy this is to implement for VZW. They do not have a Network Vision style network with multi-modal sites designed for diversity. Each AWS site will likely require its own base station and its own set of panels. There will be sites that cannot accept the new cabinets or new panels. This could be a big challenge for VZW.

 

Option #3

...refarm existing CDMA 850 resources for LTE. This is a good long term solution. However, I don't think many (if any) VZW devices support LTE 850. Also, there are existing 850 CDMA carriers still needed for a while. They may be able to come up with room for a 3x3 LTE carrier in some markets. Or maybe even a 5x5. But these places are less likely to be places they need an additional LTE carrier. In places they need more LTE capacity are places they also most likely have the largest CDMA 850 demand. And you can forget a matching 10x10 carrier in 850 for a long time.

 

In my estimation, VZW has OK long term prospects, but their short term prospects are very challenging for LTE. They will likely manage their tenuous position as well as possible, but I'm already disappointed they have not started toward AWS implementation yet. That's a misstep. And I am not rooting against Verizon. I have two VZW devices. One for work and one hotspot.

 

But the most important thing is to remember, VZW LTE has dropped to 3-6 Mbps at peak times in many places now. And that is still acceptable now. But they dropped to 3-6 Mbps very quickly. Since nothing is occurring in the short term to change this, there is no reason to believe that these speeds will stop dropping. They are going to keep dropping in the short term. Unless they start implementing some draconian network management schemes. And I wouldn't be surprised if VZW started capping speeds for certain activities like streaming, based on their position on Net Neutrality laws.

 

Last Thursday, I had my first VZW LTE speed test that was under 2Mbps that was not an anomaly. It was roughly the same speed as the EVDO from the same site. VZW needs to get moving. Its reputation is on the line.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

Edited December 27, 2012 by S4GRU
Removed iPhone 5 reference

[irev210]

 

But the most important thing is to remember, VZW LTE has dropped to 3-6 Mbps at peak times in many places now. And that is still acceptable now. But they dropped to 3-6 Mbps very quickly. Since nothing is occurring in the short term to change this, there is no reason to believe that these speeds will stop dropping. They are going to keep dropping in the short term. Unless they start implementing some draconian network management schemes. And I wouldn't be surprised if VZW started capping speeds for certain activities like streaming, based on their position on Net Neutrality laws.

 

 

I think this is a great opportunity for Sprint.

 

I think Verizon will spend the money to keep overall speeds acceptable but Sprint has the opportunity to upsell VZN and offer not only the coverage (ESMR) but the capacity with clearwire.

 

I could see a great commercial "everything you can do, I can do better" theme song.

 

shot of the "can you hear me now" VZN guy next to the old sprint dude in a basement saying "no you can't" "Yes I can" on a cellphone.

 

shot of them downloading a movie and the sprint dude downloading it faster "no you can't" "yes I can"

 

shot of them talking (sprint talking with HD voice) and surfing at the same time texting and saying "no you can't," garbled "yes I can," crystal clear

 

shot of them taking photos, uploading a picture that says "no you can't" and "yes I can" (with the photos loading on sprint much faster)

 

shot of them trying to do something at an airport where Verizon is over capacity.

 

ending with: With the brand new sprint network, Sprint now offers unlimited HD voice, unlimited data, and data speeds that are now faster than all other carriers combined and doesn't get bogged down when you need it the most, blah blah blah.

[supert0nes]

I might derail this thread a bit, but I don't think Verizon Iphone 5 model A1429 supports Band 4. I'm not sure if it's just a software patch to expand band 1 support to band 4 though. Seems like it would be easy if they thought ahead. I mention this because there's so many darn iPhone users, it's pretty important for VZW.

[supert0nes]

Maybe VZW has enough cash that they will deploy a NV style project sooner rather than later with LTE-A?