Questions about panels

[Feech]

I usually take my lunch at a Sprint tower (lots of shade and its pretty quiet there) today for the first time I noticed that this site only had 2 panels per sector..Can someone tell me why 2 panels instead of 3 which is what I normally see with other carriers? Does NV/LTE require 3 per sector even if the site called for 2 in the past like my example, and does 3 per sector give greater coverage over a area? stronger signal strength maybe?

[WiWavelength]

I usually take my lunch at a Sprint tower (lots of shade and its pretty quiet there)...

 

Are you having an affair with a Network Vision site?

 

AJ

[S4GRU]

I usually take my lunch at a Sprint tower (lots of shade and its pretty quiet there) today for the first time I noticed that this site only had 2 panels per sector..Can someone tell me why 2 panels instead of 3 which is what I normally see with other carriers? Does NV/LTE require 3 per sector even if the site called for 2 in the past like my example, and does 3 per sector give greater coverage over a area? stronger signal strength maybe?

 

The number of legacy panels per sector is dependent to the number of carriers deployed at the site. If they only have two carriers installed (one 1x and one EVDO), then there will be two panels. Two panels can support up to 8 carriers (and less than that with some older panels and OEM's). If a legacy site needs more than two panels because of the number of carriers it supports, then a new panel is added.

 

At most sites, there is only one Network Vision panel per sector. An NV panel can support up to 16 carriers. If you see more than one panel per sector on a NV site, most likely the other panels are legacy panels. The legacy panels will be removed in the future by another subcontractor. After the legacy deinstall at a site, 95% of NV sites will only have one panel per sector.

 

Robert

[dedub]

The legacy panels will be removed in the future by another subcontractor. After the legacy deinstall at a site, 95% of NV sites will only have one panel per sector.

 

I had wondered about that, why they would spend the money to separately de-install old panels after getting NV up, and not somehow migrate them into the NV network and used as spares or additional/reserve capacity.

 

I am not familiar with tower contracts, so I am guessing it probably has to do with lowering lease and/or power costs, but I would think that it costs more to have crews remove legacy equipment than to just leave it installed and unplugged where not needed, so it would (seem to) be a simple matter of turning the power back on if/when needed.

 

I'm sure they have run dozens of cost/benefit analysis about it, so no doubt they are doing it for good reasons, but it just seems a a waste to of manpower and equipment to remove stuff that is still in working condition.

[Fifth313ment]

Can someone post some pics of Sprint panels before and after Network Vision. I was trying to search this forum for images of the panels but haven't had any luck. I would love to be able to tell if my area had LTE panels up. Thanks again!

[S4GRU]

I had wondered about that, why they would spend the money to separately de-install old panels after getting NV up, and not somehow migrate them into the NV network and used as spares or additional/reserve capacity.

 

I am not familiar with tower contracts, so I am guessing it probably has to do with lowering lease and/or power costs, but I would think that it costs more to have crews remove legacy equipment than to just leave it installed and unplugged where not needed, so it would (seem to) be a simple matter of turning the power back on if/when needed.

 

I'm sure they have run dozens of cost/benefit analysis about it, so no doubt they are doing it for good reasons, but it just seems a a waste to of manpower and equipment to remove stuff that is still in working condition.

 

It's kind of like why there are busboys in a restaurant, or laborers at a construction jobsite. The waitress and the carpenter could do the clean up themselves while they are there, but when doing a large amount of production, it makes sense to send in someone less expensive afterward (and have better things to do).

 

It also allows them to keep the legacy network in place for awhile in case there is a major failure with the NV install after the change over. The site deinstall is not just removing panels, but also involves removing old coax runs, the old base stations cabinets and old backhaul telco boxes. It's a lot to ask NV subcontractors to do while they are there, when their time could be better used moving on to the next site.

 

Robert

[dedub]

yeah, I understand not loading the NV contractors, but main thing that I wonder about is why pull the old equipment at all, especially if its working.

 

ie at what point does the cost removing it become less than the cost of leaving it there (unused/powered down, but ready to re-activate).

[digiblur]

Most towers charge by the equipment mounted and the height. At least that's how it was when I had to deal with towers and mounting equipment up there.

 

This is done for of course make more money but also forces the tenants to clean up their mess.

 

Also to speak on the panels and reuse, the legacy equipment is just that, I only supports older frequency bands, doesn't have the gain of today's antennas, and etc. I am glad they are getting rid of everything off the towers.

 

I drove past another Sprint site today that has always had one panel on each sector. So things can vary quite a bit.

 

Sent from my C64 w/Epyx FastLoad cartridge

[S4GRU]

Yeah, the lessees pay fees to the tower company based on the amount of panels mounted, the placement on the tower and the amount of space their yard equipment takes up. Less panels, less equipment equals operating expenses. Especially when you are dealing with a multiplier of 38,000.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 using Forum Runner

[ericdabbs]

yeah, I understand not loading the NV contractors, but main thing that I wonder about is why pull the old equipment at all, especially if its working.

 

ie at what point does the cost removing it become less than the cost of leaving it there (unused/powered down, but ready to re-activate).

 

I would think it has to do with why have antennas that are not as efficient as the NV ones as well as having unnecessary operating costs like power. The RRUs and Antennas take up enough power as it is. Sprint needs to be aggressive in trying to lower its operating costs because it is affecting their balance sheet. With Sprint trying to shed 30,000 towers from 68,000 to about 38,000 is going to save Sprint a ton of operating costs in power, tower leases, backhaul, etc.

[Feech]

Can anyone answer the second part of my question as far as coverage with one panel as opposed to 2 or 3 panels

[boomerbubba]

Can anyone answer the second part of my question as far as coverage with one panel as opposed to 2 or 3 panels

 

I think Robert already answered your question. There is not greater geographic coverage. There is greater user capacity.

[digiblur]

Can anyone answer the second part of my question as far as coverage with one panel as opposed to 2 or 3 panels

 

Number of panels is not going to increase coverage. I guess you could in a way put one panel with an extreme downtilt for near handsets on one frequency then another with very little downtilt for far customers. I wouldn't consider it increased coverage technically. Just a dual mode tower, city and rural.

 

Sent from my C64 w/Epyx FastLoad cartridge

 

 

[S4GRU]

 

Number of panels is not going to increase coverage. I guess you could in a way put one panel with an extreme downtilt for near handsets on one frequency then another with very little downtilt for far customers. I wouldn't consider it increased coverage technically. Just a dual mode tower' date=' city and rural.

 

Sent from my C64 w/Epyx FastLoad cartridge

 

[/quote']

 

I have always imagined doing this with WiMax, especially since Clearwire has so much spectrum. Put several carriers for capacity with downtilt, but leave one panel connected to one carrier always set out at zero degrees to help fill in those edge of service areas and expand the footprint. This would have vastly improved the WiMax experience for many customers.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 using Forum Runner

[Feech]

Just so I'm clear then. The tower crews are ONLY putting up a total of 3 panels and 3 RDUs per sector and running fiber to each panel they install? All existing panels are staying in place until later.

 

If all that is true then and this comes from a former tower climber the issues with these sites being completed must be falling on Sprint not being able to keep up with tower guys or the Ericsson techs. I say this only because the tower part sounds like the easiest part of the equation

 

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[S4GRU]

Just so I'm clear then. The tower crews are ONLY putting up a total of 3 panels and 3 RDUs per sector and running fiber to each panel they install? All existing panels are staying in place until later.

 

If all that is true then and this comes from a former tower climber the issues with these sites being completed must be falling on Sprint not being able to keep up with tower guys or the Ericsson techs. I say this only because the tower part sounds like the easiest part of the equation

 

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

 

 

They are usually only adding one panel per sector. Only on really, really high capacity sites do they need a second NV panel per sector. The other panels are legacy panels. And maybe you are saying that. But when you combined RRU quantity with panels, it sounds like you may be saying three panels and three RRU's per sector.

 

Also, note that the number of RRU's per sector is highly variable from site to site. It depends on the technologies deployed at the site and number of carriers.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 using Forum Runner

[jefbal99]

I believe it is 1 panel and 3 RRUs per sector, so 3 panels and 9 RRUs per tower, plus cable for ago of that.

 

The 3 RRUs are PCS LTE, PCS EVDO, & SMR CDMA.

 

Sent from my CM9 Galaxy S2 using Forum Runner

[digiblur]

I think only higher carrier sites get more than 2 RRUs. I might be wrong but I believe I have seen pictures with 2 of them.

 

Sent from my C64 w/Epyx FastLoad cartridge

 

 

[jefbal99]

I think only higher carrier sites get more than 2 RRUs. I might be wrong but I believe I have seen pictures with 2 of them.

 

Sent from my C64 w/Epyx FastLoad cartridge

 

 

Can the PCS LTE/EVDO carriers be on the same try

RRU?

 

Sent from my CM9 Galaxy S2 using Forum Runner

[Feech]

The only reason I brought it up is because since I have joined this site I was under the impression that NV/LTE was requiring that each current sector was going to be brought down as well as the coax, then new panels would be installed on every sector replacing the older ones. I couldn't understand the aggressive number that was being thrown out there of 12000 sites I thought that was crazy. Now that crazy number makes more sense really, especially when you start to factor in rooftop sites. I'm speaking from the view of the tower guys installing the panels and RRUs that's not a hard job as opposed to my scenario. I would imagine 2-3 sites a day that could get done. A company could run 4-5 crews likely working 6 days a week.. So about 50 sites a week then.. That's on the low end of course and that's just one tower company. That's a lot of work for Ericsson and Sprint to run around and play catch up. I still think that we are going to see some big numbers accepted by Sprint, but during this deployment catch up by Sprint is going to essential I'm just not sure Sprint has enough techs to keep up with acceptance.

 

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[digiblur]

 

Can the PCS LTE/EVDO carriers be on the same try

RRU?

 

Sent from my CM9 Galaxy S2 using Forum Runner

 

I believe so, I haven't been able to find info on the RRUs probably due to them being proprietary equipment. Each one can do 4 carriers of an air interface of their choosing. A normal tower might have 2 carriers of each data and voice. So that's 4 right there. Add the one 800smr and one LTE and that's 6. Leaves 2 carriers to spare.

 

Their are physical limitations though with the frequency and antennas. Each antenna has 3 separate sections. 2 for pcs and 1 for smr. The legacy pcs channels are put on one section. 1xa on 800 and LTE on the other pcs section. Each section has independent remote controlled downtilt adjustments.

 

Sent from my C64 w/Epyx FastLoad cartridge

 

 

[digiblur]

The only reason I brought it up is because since I have joined this site I was under the impression that NV/LTE was requiring that each current sector was going to be brought down as well as the coax, then new panels would be installed on every sector replacing the older ones. I couldn't understand the aggressive number that was being thrown out there of 12000 sites I thought that was crazy. Now that crazy number makes more sense really, especially when you start to factor in rooftop sites. I'm speaking from the view of the tower guys installing the panels and RRUs that's not a hard job as opposed to my scenario. I would imagine 2-3 sites a day that could get done. A company could run 4-5 crews likely working 6 days a week.. So about 50 sites a week then.. That's on the low end of course and that's just one tower company. That's a lot of work for Ericsson and Sprint to run around and play catch up. I still think that we are going to see some big numbers accepted by Sprint, but during this deployment catch up by Sprint is going to essential I'm just not sure Sprint has enough techs to keep up with acceptance.

 

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

 

Mounting the RRUs and panels is the easiest part by far. They don't touch the legacy equipment for the most part unless a hot swap situation is required due to space limitations or tower loading issues.

 

Running all the hybrid fiber power cables up the tower, mounting the base station boxes, power, data, etc is the part that takes time. Power might have to be upgraded to support the new equipment. City inspections, permits, sprint inspections, testing the area, 911 cert testing, and the list goes on and on. It's a huge undertaking for one site.

 

Another reason they leave the legacy up for a while is so Sprint can hot swap back to the legacy setup without someone on site.

 

Sent from my C64 w/Epyx FastLoad cartridge

 

 

[DaQue]

... With Sprint trying to shed 30,000 towers from 68,000 to about 38,000 is going to save Sprint a ton of operating costs in power, tower leases, backhaul, etc.

 

hmmm.... Don't like the sound of 44% fewer towers. That sounds like a big reduction in coverage. Are they mostly gone already?

[jefbal99]

hmmm.... Don't like the sound of 44% fewer towers. That sounds like a big reduction in coverage. Are they mostly gone already?

 

I believe a lot of it is redundant Nextel SMR towers that are no longer needed

[digiblur]

hmmm.... Don't like the sound of 44% fewer towers. That sounds like a big reduction in coverage. Are they mostly gone already?

 

No, they haven't shut down the Nextel network yet.