Network Vision/LTE - SF Bay Market

[Fraydog]

Can someone look and see what has been happening in Berkeley regarding permits. It would be really interesting to see what's really going on.

 

I also wish Hesse had got his way and wasn't overruled by the Sprint board on getting MetroPCS. That asset could have been used quickly to bolster Sprint in SF among other places.

[lilotimz]

Just did a quick permit check. Most cell sites have not have any applications so far. There are a few that was literally applied today and have an estimated issuance date of the end of june. 

 

Seems my bet earlier that Berkeley is going to be one of the last cities to be begin/finish in the entire market is coming true. 

[S4GRU]

Just did a quick permit check. Most cell sites have not have any applications so far. There are a few that was literally applied today and have an estimated issuance date of the end of june.

 

Seems my bet earlier that Berkeley is going to be one of the last cities to be begin/finish in the entire market is coming true.

 

Something that is often forgotten or not commonly understood...a lot of cities require you to go through the planning/zoning dept. first before you can even file for permit. And this is very common in California, especially in the Bay Area. I have done a dozen projects in Northern California from 1997-2009.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[WiWavelength]

I also wish Hesse had got his way and wasn't overruled by the Sprint board on getting MetroPCS. That asset could have been used quickly to bolster Sprint in SF among other places.

 

Why?  MetroPCS is highly limited in its market presence -- the Bay Area is hardly the end all, be all for Sprint.  But debt issuance required to absorb MetroPCS could have been the end of Sprint.

 

AJ

[mc_gusto]

Just did a quick permit check. Most cell sites have not have any applications so far. There are a few that was literally applied today and have an estimated issuance date of the end of june.

 

Seems my bet earlier that Berkeley is going to be one of the last cities to be begin/finish in the entire market is coming true.

 

Glad I moved out of berk. I miss it though. Can you post more permit details in the nor Cal sponsor section. I posted some permit port there a couple months back, haven't checked again in awhile.

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[lilotimz]

Glad I moved out of berk. I miss it though. Can you post more permit details in the nor Cal sponsor section. I posted some permit port there a couple months back, haven't checked again in awhile.

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/PermitApplicationSearch.aspx

 

Gotta search for the exact addresses. Not the friendliest style of looking up stuff at all. 

[mc_gusto]

 

Just did a quick permit check. Most cell sites have not have any applications so far. There are a few that was literally applied today and have an estimated issuance date of the end of june.

 

 

 

Seems my bet earlier that Berkeley is going to be one of the last cities to be begin/finish in the entire market is coming true.

 

Something that is often forgotten or not commonly understood...a lot of cities require you to go through the planning/zoning dept. first before you can even file for permit. And this is very common in California, especially in the Bay Area. I have done a dozen projects in Northern California from 1997-2009.

 

 

 

Robert via Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

Would berkeley be a good candidate for gmo sites?

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[lilotimz]

Nope. All full builds. Possibly high capacity sites as well considering UC Berkeley is nearby with 40,000+ students in a few square miles for most of the year.

[puzzler]

I just moved from the Oakland Hills to Berkely (near Martin Luther King & Dwight). No LTE at all around this neighborhood. Also, today I didn't see any LTE along Shattuck from Allston (downtown) to Ashby.

I did some looking around on the Berkeley Planning web site (thanks for the idea lilotimz) and found the listing for current zoning applications:

http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Planning_and_Development/Land_Use_Division/Current_Zoning_Applications_Log.aspx

I found applications to upgrade two Sprint sites to LTE. These are existing sites, not new sites.

1) 1725 Eastshore Hwy, Berkeley - on the roof of Kaiser Labs buidling, along side Hwy 580/80.

Submitted for Design Review & Use Permits on 2-20-13.

Design Review: Permit # 13-30000014
Application for Use: Permit #: 13-20000023 This is a 116 page doc and has extermely detailed plans and equipment and engineering drawings for every aspect of the upgrade. There are detailed coverage maps as well. Also included are required independent impact reports for noise, RF and other factors.

2) 1760 Solano Ave - on the Solano Professional Building.
Design Review submitted on 2-6-13. Permit #: 13-30000010
Modification permits submitted on 5-8-13 Permit #: 13-70000004. Strangely, they seem to have mistakenly inlcuded photos of the 1725 Eastshore Hwy site, instead pf the Soalno Professional Buidling. This also includes correspondence from the city requesting extensive engineering and environemental reports. BTW, the permit states that the cost of the upgrade is $35,000.

These docs provide insight into the permitting process. I think Berkeley's requirementsfor the reports, etc., while quite extensive, are likley standard in many local governments: the question is how long Berkeley might drag out the approval process compared to other cities. I couldn't find anything indicating the current status of these permits but I didn't have time to look around very much.

A few closing comments/opinions: The 1725 Eastshore site upgrade will mostly benefit vehicles on the adjacent freeway and business in that area, which has very few residential dwellings. The 1760 Solano Ave site includes residential coverage as well as businesses along Solano Ave, but reach of the coverage is limited to a relatively small area of N. Berkeley and Albany. IOW, the upgrade to these two sites alone aren't going do much for the large areas of the city that still do not have LTE or 3G NV upgrades. Hopefully, there are other Berkeley site upgrades that have already been approved and are simply waiting to be physically implemented. If not, the current lack of permit applications to upgrade other Berkeley sites may indicate that most of the residential areas of Berkeley are in for a quite a wait for LTE.

I think an obvious lingering question is why Sprint has apparenty waited so long to submit applications for the site upgrade permits. Assuming that there are many other sites in Berkeley that Sprint intends to upgrade, why not at least start the permitting process as soon as possible? I'm not coming to any conclusions here or trying to slam Sprint. Perhaps there are very reasonable answers to the questions. And it's possible that the listings that I found on the Berkeley city web site are incomplete and there are other permits well along in the process. Though for sure, I'd LOVE to be wrong, in the mean time, it's possible that large areas of Berkeley on the Sensorly map are unlikely to turn purple for quite a while.

Edited May 30, 2013 by puzzler

[lilotimz]

I just moved from the Oakland Hills to Berkely (near Martin Luther King & Dwight). No LTE at all around this neighborhood. Also, today I didn't see any LTE along Shattuck from Allston (downtown) to Ashby.

 

I did some looking around on the Berkeley Planning web site (thanks for the idea lilotimz) and found the listing for current zoning applications:

 

http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Planning_and_Development/Land_Use_Division/Current_Zoning_Applications_Log.aspx

 

I found applications to upgrade two Sprint sites to LTE. These are existing sites, not new sites.

 

1) 1725 Eastshore Hwy, Berkeley - on the roof of Kaiser Labs buidling, along side Hwy 580/80.

 

Submitted for Design Review & Use Permits on 2-20-13.

Design Review: Permit # 13-30000014

Application for Use: Permit #: 13-20000023 This is a 116 page doc and has extermely detailed plans and equipment and engineering drawings for every aspect of the upgrade. There are detailed coverage maps as well. Also included are required independent impact reports for noise, RF and other factors.

 

2) 1760 Solano Ave - on the Solano Professional Building.

Design Review submitted on 2-6-13. Permit #: 13-30000010

Modification permits submitted on 5-8-13 Permit #: 13-70000004. Strangely, they seem to have mistakenly inlcuded photos of the 1725 Eastshore Hwy site, instead pf the Soalno Professional Buidling. This also includes correspondence from the city requesting extensive engineering and environemental reports. BTW, the permit states that the cost of the upgrade is $35,000.

 

These docs provide insight into the permitting process. I think Berkeley's requirementsfor the reports, etc., while quite extensive, are likley standard in many local governments: the question is how long Berkeley might drag out the approval process compared to other cities. I couldn't find anything indicating the current status of these permits but I didn't have time to look around very much.

 

A few closing comments/opinions: The 1725 Eastshore site upgrade will mostly benefit vehicles on the adjacent freeway and business in that area, which has very few residential dwellings. The 1760 Solano Ave site includes residential coverage as well as businesses along Solano Ave, but reach of the coverage is limited to a relatively small area of N. Berkeley and Albany. IOW, the upgrade to these two sites alone aren't going do much for the large areas of the city that still do not have LTE or 3G NV upgrades. Hopefully, there are other Berkeley site upgrades that have already been approved and are simply waiting to be physically implemented. If not, the current lack of permit applications to upgrade other Berkeley sites may indicate that most of the residential areas of Berkeley are in for a quite a wait for LTE.

 

I think an obvious lingering question is why Sprint has apparenty waited so long to submit applications for the site upgrade permits. Assuming that there are many other sites in Berkeley that Sprint intends to upgrade, why not at least start the permitting process as soon as possible? I'm not coming to any conclusions here or trying to slam Sprint. Perhaps there are very reasonable answers to the questions. And it's possible that the listings that I found on the Berkeley city web site are incomplete and there are other permits well along in the process. Though for sure, I'd LOVE to be wrong, in the mean time, it's possible that large areas of Berkeley on the Sensorly map are unlikely to turn purple for quite a while.

Oh no. 100+ page docs that state every aspect of the upgrade is not the norm at all and is part of the reason why I've bet that they will be the last area to upgrade.

 

In comparison, for most of the upper central valley applications for Sacramento and surrounding locales, the building application process already takes consideration of zoning and other aspects. In addition, it's mainly a permit form & a few pages and diagrams of what work will be done.

 

I've posted an application given to Sacramento's building department on 5/14 and by 5/20 had most of the stuff inspected and approved. The two sites you've listed have not even been accepted yet! 

Here's a permit status checkup image to showcase how quickly other municipalities (sacramento) does permits. 

 

*Note - Reno gets their permits approved within a week or two of being applied!

*Note - Also this specific permits needs one more inspection before issuance and fees to be paid ... ($313)

*Edit - That slide on a Samsung TDD-LTE / Wimax RRU is very informative! Thanks!

 

[mc_gusto]

Nope. All full builds. Possibly high capacity sites as well considering UC Berkeley is nearby with 40,000+ students in a few square miles for most of the year.

 

I was thinking more of being gmo in the meantime since it may not require additional permits. And circle back when the permits for full builds are eventually approved.

 

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[lilotimz]

I was thinking more of being gmo in the meantime since it may not require additional permits. And circle back when the permits for full builds are eventually approved.

 

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

Still need permits to work on base stations and since most of these are on top of buildings, might as well apply for antennas as well. GMO's are only reserved for low load, high cost, and little gains for the $ sites. Berkeley ones are high cost, high load, and potentially high gains once network vision comes through. 

[mc_gusto]

 

 

I was thinking more of being gmo in the meantime since it may not require additional permits. And circle back when the permits for full builds are eventually approved.

 

 

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

Still need permits to work on base stations and since most of these are on top of buildings, might as well apply for antennas as well. GMO's are only reserved for low load, high cost, and little gains for the $ sites. Berkeley ones are high cost, high load, and potentially high gains once network vision comes through.

Ah ok thanks for the explanation. In Roberts gmo posting I thought it said most gmo can be done without permits, didn't know if that applied to places like this or not. Thanks for the further clarification.

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[lilotimz]

Ah ok thanks for the explanation. In Roberts gmo posting I thought it said most gmo can be done without permits, didn't know if that applied to places like this or not. Thanks for the further clarification.

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

GMO's are reserved for areas where it's prohibitively expensive to acquire backhaul and or modify the cell site without extensive costs and preparation. Sites such as that along highways in the middle of nowhere like the Sierra Nevadas going from the foothills to South Lake Tahoe or Reno. Within city limits, the majority of sites are going to be full builds unless it's part of the 100 or so where Sprint cannot / will not touch. If so, they'll just relocate to another location nearby.

[mc_gusto]

other Berkeley sites may indicate that most of the residential areas of Berkeley are in for a quite a wait for LTE.

 

 

I think an obvious lingering question is why Sprint has apparenty waited so long to submit applications for the site upgrade permits. Assuming that there are many other sites in Berkeley that Sprint intends to upgrade, why not at least start the permitting process as soon as possible? I'm not coming to any conclusions here or trying to slam Sprint. Perhaps there are very reasonable answers to the questions. And it's possible that the listings that I found on the Berkeley city web site are incomplete and there are other permits well along in the process. Though for sure, I'd LOVE to be wrong, in the mean time, it's possible that large areas of Berkeley on the Sensorly map are unlikely to turn purple for quite a while.

 

I found this one a couple months ago. I posted it in the nor Cal sponsor section.

 

 

1099 Ashby Ave (filed Oct 2nd)

 

http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/uploadedFiles/Planning_and_Development/Level_3_-_Land_Use_Division/2012-10-02_AUP__1099%20Ashby.pdf

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[S4GRU]

I think an obvious lingering question is why Sprint has apparenty waited so long to submit applications for the site upgrade permits. Assuming that there are many other sites in Berkeley that Sprint intends to upgrade, why not at least start the permitting process as soon as possible? I'm not coming to any conclusions here or trying to slam Sprint. Perhaps there are very reasonable answers to the questions. And it's possible that the listings that I found on the Berkeley city web site are incomplete and there are other permits well along in the process. Though for sure, I'd LOVE to be wrong, in the mean time, it's possible that large areas of Berkeley on the Sensorly map are unlikely to turn purple for quite a while.

 

Often with a city like Berekely, there are meetings far in advance to try to negotiate reasonable terms for planning submittal. These can take months, and extreme cases, years. I had to do the same in Napa back in 2008.

 

You don't walk into a city like Berkeley or Napa, fill out an application for planning/zoning approval and wait to hear back in 90-180 days what they say is wrong with your application. You schedule a meeting with bureaucrats and find out everything they want, how they want it and start negotiating the things they don't like. Try to head off the problems up front. However, cities usually come up with much more than they initially said up front.

 

Then the next step in most places like Berkeley, after you think you have everything you need, you have to go to a stupid Neighborhood Advisory council and get their blessing. That can take 30-180 days and may take multiple submittals.

 

Then after getting neighborhood advisory permission they can then go and get formal city planning/zoning approval. If they approve, it will take 30-180 days. If they don't, you may go back and forth.

 

Then after all this, you can file for a building permit. It truly is amazing that any entity would subject themselves to such insanity. It took my company four years to get approval and a building permit in Napa for a hotel. Four years!

 

And if there is a zoning variance existing, or a new one is required, it can even further lengthen the process more. Those usually require City Council action with community comment in a public meeting.

 

Most likely why only two sites have been formally submitted for planning/zoning approval is because the others are somewhere in the presteps. The city or a neighborhood council may still have issues with the other sites, but were willing to allow these other sites to go forward because they are less controversial.

 

If I were Sprint, I would probably go the GMO route now and come back and do these as full builds whenever in the future the City of Berkeley deems Sprint worthy enough. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Berkeley even required a GMO to have a permit, even though they would just be switching out ground equipment one for one.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[Deval]

I'm currently on a layover to Vegas, and thoroughly enjoying LTE connectivity on my iPad here near the international terminal at SFO.

 

I never knew this airport was so large and confusing.

 

 

Sent from my Sprint iPad using Tapatalk HD

[mc_gusto]

 

 

 

If I were Sprint, I would probably go the GMO route now and come back and do these as full builds whenever in the future the City of Berkeley deems Sprint worthy enough. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Berkeley even required a GMO to have a permit, even though they would just be switching out ground equipment one for one.

 

 

 

Robert via Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

Is there any place they do gmo in cities because permits are hard to come by?

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[mc_gusto]

Looks like they may have turned on a tower in the Richmond district. Robert do u know if (site ID removed)

Is being worked on or approved?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 

[S4GRU]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I were Sprint, I would probably go the GMO route now and come back and do these as full builds whenever in the future the City of Berkeley deems Sprint worthy enough. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Berkeley even required a GMO to have a permit, even though they would just be switching out ground equipment one for one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Robert via Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

 

 

Is there any place they do gmo in cities because permits are hard to come by?

 

 

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

 

 

I don't know of any where Sprint intentionally went the GMO route to avoid a difficult permitting process. Also, there seems to be some confusion about GMO's and permitting.

 

To clarify, MOST jurisdictions would not require any permits to do a GMO installation. There are a few exceptions. Here in New Mexico, building permits are issued by the State and not by individual (except Albuquerque). The State of New Mexico did require GMO sites to get electrical permits, but that was it. These were easy, fast and inexpensive.

 

Robert from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[S4GRU]

Looks like they may have turned on a tower in the Richmond district. Robert do u know if (site ID removed)

 

 

Is being worked on or approved?

 

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

I'll look this up when I get home. If I remember...

 

Robert from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[mc_gusto]

Looks like they may have turned on a tower in the Richmond district. Robert do u know if (site ID removed) Is being worked on or approved?

 

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

 

 

I'll look this up when I get home. If I remember...

 

 

 

Robert from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

 

 

Thanks! Sorry didn't realize we couldn't post site IDs here. Next time I'll ask in the sponsor section.

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[briank86]

This is from Fremont. Must be 800 MHz available already.

[mc_gusto]

This is from Fremont. Must be 800 MHz available already.

Where in Fremont?

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[briank86]

Where in Fremont?

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Near the hub, it's gone today though.