Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[Morningside78]

The new deployment over Sprints sites utilize the newest and latest technology with 8T8R antennas (8 antennas transmit 8 receive) and are a huge improvement over the equipment that Clear is using.

 

thanks for the clarification.  perhaps I was misunderstanding the posts here, but I believed the people here raving about how fast band 41 is were connecting to the new sites you mentioned, rather than converted WiMax.  what you're saying is that the better service is still a ways off and none of that stuff is currently available in NYC.  am I right about that?

[lilotimz]

thanks for the clarification.  perhaps I was misunderstanding the posts here, but I believed the people here raving about how fast band 41 is were connecting to the new sites you mentioned, rather than converted WiMax.  what you're saying is that the better service is still a ways off and none of that stuff is currently available in NYC.  am I right about that?

 

Here's the clarification.

 

People in your area are connecting to Samsung Wimax / TDD-LTE equipment aka this which is deployed over the Clear network. They're 2x2 MIMO equipment running Band 41 TDD-LTE on Clear setups. Because Clear was money strapped for nearly the entirety of its existence they cheaped out on backhaul (high speed internet connections) by utilizing multiple hops on microwave and ordering backhaul which do not push the equipment to its true capabilities but because of the wider carriers (20 mhz) it still has a whole lot more capacity than the 5 mhz carriers in use on PCS and thus faster speeds.

 

The Clear equipment are not bad by any means but 8T8R equipment as deployed are just on a whole other level in terms of capabilities. Right now the new 8T8R equipment are being actively deployed and undergoing FIT testing. They will broadcast the same 20 mhz TDD-LTE carriers but will be provisioned by Sprint ordered backhaul which was stipulated from the beginning to be scalable to 1 gbps + which are very much needed.

 

Sprint and the vendors have publicly stated that they will go online this quarter (july to october time frame). The time frames are extremely aggressive and they're deploying the equipment as fast as they receive them from the vendors. 

 

In my opinion, better service is not a ways off in terms of many many months to years. It's coming rapidly and will hit every market that is being deployed like a person running smack head on into a brick wall. The page has turned for deployment and with John Saw at the helm I actually do believe it's very near. 

[Morningside78]

Here's the clarification.

 

People in your area are connecting to Samsung Wimax / TDD-LTE equipment aka this which is deployed over the Clear network. They're 2x2 MIMO equipment running Band 41 TDD-LTE on Clear setups. Because Clear was money strapped for nearly the entirety of its existence they cheaped out on backhaul (high speed internet connections) by utilizing multiple hops on microwave and ordering backhaul which do not push the equipment to its true capabilities but because of the wider carriers (20 mhz) it still has a whole lot more capacity than the 5 mhz carriers in use on PCS and thus faster speeds.

 

The Clear equipment are not bad by any means but 8T8R equipment as deployed are just on a whole other level in terms of capabilities. Right now the new 8T8R equipment are being actively deployed and undergoing FIT testing. They will broadcast the same 20 mhz TDD-LTE carriers but will be provisioned by Sprint ordered backhaul which was stipulated from the beginning to be scalable to 1 gbps + which are very much needed.

 

ah ok well that certainly changes things quite a bit, and it explains why the band 41 speeds I was getting just look a whole lot like the band 25 speeds back during the testing phase a few years ago (when hardly anybody even knew LTE was available in my neighborhood).  I hope you can forgive me for thinking the "next wave" was already working in areas when people here are singing the praises of the currently deployed clear band 41 as if it's something entirely new.  I guess it's simply a case of having to wait for the new equipment to be activated and see how well it handles the demand of the NYC market.

 

incidentally, once the new equipment is deployed, how will people avoid connecting to the terrible band 25 available in most of the city now?

Edited August 1, 2014 by Morningside78

[jamisonshaw125]

It's going to be so nice to see how fast upgrades show up. We're all very used to the current deployment speed for NV 1.0. The way you're describing it is more like how fast T-Mobile got their lte installed.

[lilotimz]

ah ok well that certainly changes things quite a bit, and it explains why the band 41 speeds I was getting just look a whole lot like the band 25 speeds back during the testing phase a few years ago (when hardly anybody even knew LTE was available in my neighborhood).  I hope you can forgive me for thinking the "next wave" was already working in areas when people here are singing the praises of the currently deployed clear band 41 as if it's something entirely new.  I guess it's simply a case of having to wait for the new equipment to be activated and see how well it handles the demand of the NYC market.

 

incidentally, once the new equipment is deployed, how will people avoid connecting to the terrible band 25 available in most of the city now?

 

Oh it will handle it beautifully. 

 

The equipment being deployed are the same type used by China Mobile who's deploying it over in China to a hell of a lot more subscribers with a hell of a higher pop density than the US.

 

Furthermore they will be running these antennas in 4x2 MIMO which helps in improving signal quality and speeds at low reception levels. Where people on B25 get 1-3 mbps at -110 dBm RSRP a user on Band 41 can get 20-40 mbps!

 

In addition because they're running 4x2 MIMO it means they're running 2 chains of it for 2 sectors per antenna making it 6 sectors per cell site. Each sector running 1 20 mhz carrier has theoretical speeds of about 100 mbps. So each antenna will be broadcasting out about 180-200 mbps of capacity which is far more than what is possible with 1 PCS LTE Carrier (~37 mbps) + 1 SMR LTE carrier (~37 mbps). 

 

This is one of the reasons why I say it's so much better than the Clear setup and am excited for it to be activated but I do not fault you for being skeptical again at a future thing especially when the past leadership could not deliver literally anything they said they would. 

[Morningside78]

Oh it will handle it beautifully. 

 

The equipment being deployed are the same type used by China Mobile who's deploying it over in China to a hell of a lot more subscribers with a hell of a higher pop density than the US.

 

Furthermore they will be running these antennas in 4x2 MIMO which helps in improving signal quality and speeds at low reception levels. Where people on B25 get 1-3 mbps at -110 dBm RSRP a user on Band 41 can get 20-40 mbps!

 

In addition because they're running 4x2 MIMO it means they're running 2 chains of it for 2 sectors per antenna making it 6 sectors per cell site. Each sector running 1 20 mhz carrier has theoretical speeds of about 100 mbps. So each antenna will be broadcasting out about 180-200 mbps of capacity which is far more than what is possible with 1 PCS LTE Carrier (~37 mbps) + 1 SMR LTE carrier (~37 mbps). 

 

This is one of the reasons why I say it's so much better than the Clear setup and am excited for it to be activated but I do not fault you for being skeptical again at a future thing especially when the past leadership could not deliver literally anything they said they would. 

 

oh what I meant more was how will it work so that our devices opt for band 41 rather than 25 once the new equipment is activated?  assuming that this new equipment will overlap the oversaturated equipment currently in place in neighborhoods like mine, what's to insure that we no longer have to deal with band 25?

 

also, is 20-40 Mbps about what the expected max download speed is expected to be for the new equipment?

 

thank you, by the way, for acknowledging that Sprint's abysmal track record has done them no favors when it comes to expecting anything resembling reliability from the company in the future.  I do realize that the merger with SB is potentially a big game changer for the company so that does temper some of my pessimism.  still, with Sprint it has to be a case of "seeing is believing," and from what you've said we won't really be seeing anything for a number of months yet. 

[lilotimz]

oh what I meant more was how will it work so that our devices opt for band 41 rather than 25 once the new equipment is activated?  assuming that this new equipment will overlap the oversaturated equipment currently in place in neighborhoods like mine, what's to insure that we no longer have to deal with band 25?

 

also, is 20-40 Mbps about what the expected max download speed is expected to be for the new equipment?

 

thank you, by the way, for acknowledging that Sprint's abysmal track record has done them no favors when it comes to expecting anything resembling reliability from the company in the future.  I do realize that the merger with SB is potentially a big game changer for the company so that does temper some of my pessimism.  still, with Sprint it has to be a case of "seeing is believing," and from what you've said we won't really be seeing anything for a number of months yet. 

 

Here's how the network is meant to be set up..

 

B41 --> B25 --> B26

 

Since B25 is very saturated any triband or dual band device will opt for B26 or B41 when available and will drop back to B25 when that carrier become decent enough to use. 

 

The max theoretical speed is 107/14.7. The 20-40 statement is what is expected at very low signal levels at the edge of cell sites. Speeds decrease as LTE reception becomes weaker. Newer technologies like higher MIMO setups etc helps out a lot in terms of edge of cell reception and speeds compared to the 2x2 MIMO gear used by everyone else other than T-mobile Nokia markets which also run 4x2 MIMO. 

[nexgencpu]

oh what I meant more was how will it work so that our devices opt for band 41 rather than 25 once the new equipment is activated?  assuming that this new equipment will overlap the oversaturated equipment currently in place in neighborhoods like mine, what's to insure that we no longer have to deal with band 25?

 

also, is 20-40 Mbps about what the expected max download speed is expected to be for the new equipment?

 

thank you, by the way, for acknowledging that Sprint's abysmal track record has done them no favors when it comes to expecting anything resembling reliability from the company in the future.  I do realize that the merger with SB is potentially a big game changer for the company so that does temper some of my pessimism.  still, with Sprint it has to be a case of "seeing is believing," and from what you've said we won't really be seeing anything for a number of months yet. 

Just to be clear, once again, as great as 8t8r will be (and im sure it will be awesome!), NYC still has PLENTY Band 41 coverage, (except in a few pockets) also the current setup only allow a single 20Mhz carrier to be deployed. But in comparison to B25 which is limited to 10Mhz (5x5Mhz) even at its best maxes out around 35mb second, whereas the current Band 41 maxes out around 80mbs. Even during rush hour Band 41 holds its own (between 15-30mbs)

 

Here is another test i did a few blocks from my house on unburdened sector today...

 

[Palan]

Do we need new phones to get 8t8 antennas? Or will the current triband phones work

[kojitsari]

Do we need new phones to get 8t8 antennas? Or will the current triband phones work

You made me laugh lol. Any triband phone will work, the new antennas don't require you to get a new phone.

[nexgencpu]

Do we need new phones to get 8t8 antennas? Or will the current triband phones work

Current phones are completely compatible, but are limited to a single 20Mhz block. So we wont be able to take advantage of the carrier aggregation. But we will definitely see the benefits of its expanded stability and coverage.

[lilotimz]

Do we need new phones to get 8t8 antennas? Or will the current triband phones work

 

Sprint has been stealthily seeding 4x2 MIMO devices for a while to take full advantage of the antennas. Carrier Aggregation and such will require new phones because the technology to aggregate 2 20mhz carriers or 3 20 mhz carriers have not been released commercially but will be coming in devices in Q4 and 1H 2015. 

[nexgencpu]

Sprint has been stealthily seeding 4x2 MIMO devices for a while to take full advantage of the antennas. Carrier Aggregation and such will require new phones because the technology to aggregate 2 20mhz carriers or 3 20 mhz carriers have not been released commercially but will be coming in devices in Q4 and 1H 2015. 

Hmm, thats interesting, is there is a list somewhere of specific 4x2 MIMO devices? Or are we to assume all Tri-band devices are?

[lilotimz]

Hmm, thats interesting, is there is a list somewhere of specific 4x2 MIMO devices? Or are we to assume all Tri-band devices are?

We do not know exactly which models are capable but considering sprint workers are using Nexus 5s to test the network that should give you an idea of one possible device.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Morningside78]

by the way, thank you, lilotimz for providing basically nothing but useful information.  very much appreciated. 

[Paynefanbro]

We do not know exactly which models are capable but considering sprint workers are using Nexus 5s to test the network that should give you an idea of one possible device.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

I'm really hoping the M8 is 4x2 MIMO compatible. I guess we'll find out eventually.

[dstar2002]

Saw said most devices are capable. For whatever that means.

 

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/sprint-confirms-most-its-lte-devices-will-be-able-access-4x2-mimo-technolog/2014-07-15

[S4GRU]

Saw said most devices are capable. For whatever that means.

 

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/sprint-confirms-most-its-lte-devices-will-be-able-access-4x2-mimo-technolog/2014-07-15

 

It is backward compatible with any B41 device.  They will still be able to get access to the same B41 sites, just any that can't handle 4x2 will not have the edge of cell extra speed benefits.

 

Robert

[prodeq12]

having owned Galaxy devices previously and wanting a tri-band to play around with it. I've only had it a few days and will be returning it before the end of the 14-day window. but having been using iPhones for the last several years, I realized pretty quickly I made the right choice to leave Samsung behind.

I recommend you try out the nexus 5 for one major reason that completely sold me, its the only phone that gives me the freedom to go. It has the ability to use T-Mobile's and AT&T's network with the switch of a Sim card. You can also enjoy B25 B26 and B41 on Sprint's network. Something you can't do with any other phone in the market right now. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)

 

If you can purchase the phone and stay away from contract plans this would help with network frustrations since currently no network is perfect. I have friends on other network that have their complaints that's why I never left Sprint and decided to stick it out.

[jamisonshaw125]

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong)

 

You are. There are multiple triband phones, but the nexus 5 is the only one that is priced off contract for 349 from google play..so you got that part right.

[Palan]

You made me laugh lol. Any triband phone will work, the new antennas don't require you to get a new phone.

well that's good to know

[prodeq12]

You are. There are multiple triband phones, but the nexus 5 is the only one that is priced off contract for 349 from google play..so you got that part right.

What I meant is that the Nexus 5 is the only phone that Sprint carries that is unlocked and can access LTE Bands 1,2,4,5,17,19,25,26,41 making it usable on T-Mobile and AT&T LTE networks by switching Sim cards.

[SpenceSouth]

What I meant is that the Nexus 5 is the only phone that Sprint carries that is unlocked and can access LTE Bands 1,2,4,5,17,19,25,26,41 making it usable on T-Mobile and AT&T LTE networks by switching Sim cards.

It's a versatile beast.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Palan]

How do the 8T8R antennas help 2.5ghz get more coverage?

[nexgencpu]

How do the 8T8R antennas help 2.5ghz get more coverage?

http://www.lightreading.com/mobile/4g-lte/sprint-promises-180mbit-s-peaks-in-2015/d/d-id/709518