Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[wispiANt]

I guess we've all been in the same neighborhood recently. 

On 2/9/2022 at 9:00 AM, T-MoblieUser207 said:

Verizon eNB 81005 has a small little panel next to its C-band panel, anyone have an idea what it is for?

Was passing by this site and noticed that it was upgraded once again, this time with an unshrouded Samsung RT4401-48A (CBRS).

[T-MoblieUser207]

5 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

I guess we've all been in the same neighborhood recently. 

Was passing by this site and noticed that it was upgraded once again, this time with an unshrouded Samsung RT4401-48A (CBRS).

Funny enough, I wanted to mention the site, but I couldn't get a clear photo to figure out what was changed.

Speaking of Verizon, I know C-band/CBRS expansion is more important, but has B5/n5 coverage increased? I know Verizon does DSS so they have both LTE and NR live, so I locked B5 to map it recently since AT&T long time shut their B5 down, but there were either plenty of holes, or not many towers have it yet. I probably should wait until I get a SIM for them though.

[Paynefanbro]

9 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

Speaking of Verizon, I know C-band/CBRS expansion is more important, but has B5/n5 coverage increased? I know Verizon does DSS so they have both LTE and NR live, so I locked B5 to map it recently since AT&T long time shut their B5 down, but there were either plenty of holes, or not many towers have it yet. I probably should wait until I get a SIM for them though.

According to https://historiccellcoverage.com, nope.

Verizon has effectively stopped deployment of DSS 5G altogether and is only expanding C-band. I think they realized that it's simply not worth the overhead and loss in network efficiency. They just need to focus on getting as many 5G devices into as many people's hands as possible and getting the majority of their network traffic on 5G like T-Mobile. Only then can they begin actually repurposing spectrum from LTE to 5G.

I also think that Verizon is comfortable with not expanding n5 because they know it'll make their average 5G speeds and reliability look much better when Ookla and OpenSignal test it. Their average speeds nationwide can't be dragged down by areas where they only have Band/n5 if most of their customers only connect to C-band and occasionally mmWave.

It reminds me of the early days of 5G when Verizon was able to claim they had the "world's fastest 5G network" back when they only deployed mmWave. They were correct due to a technicality, but it was slightly misleading.

[AirlineFlyer]

On 6/15/2022 at 3:20 AM, T-MoblieUser207 said:

JFK Terminal 5 DAS
Compared to last year July 2021 when I passed through T5 at JFK, the DAS today is downright awful. They changed it to allow Sprint bands to broadcast as 312-250, and it might help with capacity, as T-Mobile's bands are congested badly. All of T-Mobile's bands (B2 20+B66 20+B12) on it don't pull more than 2 Mbps down independently or with Carrier Aggregation (CA), as when CA is added, it's not active on speedtests, no matter the server. B2 and B12 have some upload speeds, good luck with B66. Sprint has B26 plus 5 MHz B25 and 40 MHz B41, and is decently better. The 40 MHz of B41 is fine, but upload is low even with upload CA active, B25 is fine on download, and B26 is pretty much empty. Album of screenshots here.

Meanwhile, when I went through JFK T5 last month with Verizon I actually had fantastic C-band coverage all over the airport, much to my surprise. Inside T5 I was getting nearly 500 Mbps down. I guess T5’s DAS now has C-band. https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/i/5106801625

[wispiANt]

On 6/6/2022 at 2:40 PM, thisischuck01 said:

I've found it actually isn't too difficult to identify the LTE-only oDAS node solely on antenna type (sorry if this is known information):

Verizon: Longer antenna, "cap" on top of the antenna

AT&T: Longer antenna, no "cap" on top of the antenna but knobbed about 1/4 the way down

Sprint: Short antenna

T-Mobile: No antenna on the newer nodes, longer antenna that is completely smooth on the older nodes

It seems the range of the newer LTE-only T-Mobile oDAS nodes tends to be a bit more limited than the other carriers, likely due to not using an external antenna. I'm assuming that's purposeful?

To expand on this:

Verizon: Longer antenna, sometimes a "cap" on top of the antenna. Typically uses Extenet or CC NG for deployment

AT&T: Longer antenna, no "cap" on top of the antenna but knobbed about 1/4 the way down. Typically uses Extenet or CC Solutions for deployment

Sprint: Short antenna. Only uses Extenet or Mobilitie for deployment

T-Mobile: 

• Old Nodes: Longer antenna hard to distinguish from Verizon
• Newer Nodes: Short antenna, similar to the antenna Sprint uses. Only uses CC (and variants) for deployment
• Newer(ish?) Nodes: No antenna.

[Paynefanbro]

T-Mobile once again showing that their macro density is a force to be reckoned with.

I found a keep site in Brooklyn that's on the same block as an existing T-Mobile site. They're <500ft from each other but the sectors face away from each other to minimize interference.

T-Mobile eNB 875364 (40.63328556538357, -74.02370674293812)

[T-MoblieUser207]

On 6/25/2022 at 4:41 PM, Paynefanbro said:

T-Mobile eNB 875364 (40.63328556538357, -74.02370674293812)

Added! I found a keep site, Sprint eNB 6714, near the corner of North End Avenue and Vesey Street, but I didn't have enough time to find it.

Speaking of Sprint, I think the LTE will be shut down fully on June 31st now, as all my devices mapped that tower under 312-250, not one did via 310-120 like 2 of them usually do. None of them are rooted, so I don't know how to check PLMNs and see if 310-120 is still live, as it probably still is. Guess its time to find the Sprint SIM for one last spin around the city.

2.5 GHz holdings in the Bronx
I took a trip over the weekend north of 161st Street across the Bronx to see if anything changed with B/n41. LTE B41 on T-Mobile has dropped from 20 MHz (2538.2) to 15 MHz (2599). I would assume n41 has 2 carriers in the Bronx now, with one of them at 40 MHz, but I don't know what the second one is, and the EARFCN didn't change as I mapped across the borough to pick up the other one. Its time for me to get a S series device to keep up with the network changes now ha.

[Paynefanbro]

On 6/27/2022 at 1:10 AM, T-MoblieUser207 said:

Speaking of Sprint, I think the LTE will be shut down fully on June 31st now, as all my devices mapped that tower under 312-250, not one did via 310-120 like 2 of them usually do. None of them are rooted, so I don't know how to check PLMNs and see if 310-120 is still live, as it probably still is. Guess its time to find the Sprint SIM for one last spin around the city.

Still seeing 310-120 in my area. It looks like they have started turning it off or at least blocking connections to it on a lot of sites nationwide though. 

 

[Paynefanbro]

Went up to Woodbury again and it looks like the Archdiocese and NW Spectrum LLC are hampering T-Mobile's ability to expand beyond 40MHz still.

Band 41 is still alive and well on Sprint in Orange County. I was seeing 20MHz of Band 41 on both Sprint and T-Mobile. n41 is still at 40MHz unfortunately with no sign of a second n41 carrier anywhere. 

— — — — —

eNB 9410 is broadcasting the keep PLMN (40.593228859741565, -73.99464719142064)

Also Sprint eNB 9352 by Woodbury Common is broadcasting the keep PLMN. I'm 95% sure it's the site located on top of the mountain at (41.30338235034396, -74.1144901073151). 

[wispiANt]

• Still seeing strong T-Mobile HSPA+ and some weak Sprint B26 (311-490) in the north Bedstuy area
• Sprint eNB 6705 (40.70091884265787,-73.94344902067445) is broadcasting the keep PLMN
• Sprint eNB 899078/899079 (40.83022854043739,-73.94830306659236) has been converted, though the site has not yet been lit up. The density up there is pretty insane - 400ft from the site just North, 600ft from the site just South.

• Spotted another Dish site near City College (1606 Amsterdam Ave). This is not a former Sprint site, and the neighboring Sprint site (across the street) has not been decommissioned. Still not seeing the Dish PLMN in this area.

[Paynefanbro]

I'm still getting Band 26 and Band 41 from keep sites in Crown Heights and Bay Ridge. I haven't seen any Band 25 though. I'm starting to think T-Mobile shut down Sprint's PCS spectrum here. I wonder if we'll get 5MHz Band 25 + 5MHz n25 carrier or if we'll just get 2 5MHz n25 carriers.

[Dkoellerwx]

4 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

I wonder if we'll get 5MHz Band 25 + 5MHz n25 carrier or if we'll just get 2 5MHz n25 carriers.

I don't believe T-Mobile has any plans to deploy B25 LTE. The G-Block will most likely go straight to n25, while any other PCS spectrum may be added to B2 LTE channels if it's not used for n25.

[wispiANt]

5 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

I'm still getting Band 26 and Band 41 from keep sites in Crown Heights and Bay Ridge. I haven't seen any Band 25 though. I'm starting to think T-Mobile shut down Sprint's PCS spectrum here. I wonder if we'll get 5MHz Band 25 + 5MHz n25 carrier or if we'll just get 2 5MHz n25 carriers.

Yeah, their midband holdings aren't really conducive to deploying meaningful NR channels unless they shrink their existing LTE channels.

AWS: 25+25 MHz

PCS: 25+25 MHz, 5+5 MHz

Deploying a single n66 channel and two n25 channels is messy and doesn't really make sense as only the more recent devices allow for 3x NR CA (even for intra-band CA). Plus, you'd think they'd want to deploy at least a 10MHz channel if they're looking to take some load off the existing n71 channel.

[Paynefanbro]

On 7/3/2022 at 7:50 PM, thisischuck01 said:

Yeah, their midband holdings aren't really conducive to deploying meaningful NR channels unless they shrink their existing LTE channels.

AWS: 25+25 MHz

PCS: 25+25 MHz, 5+5 MHz

Deploying a single n66 channel and two n25 channels is messy and doesn't really make sense as only the more recent devices allow for 3x NR CA (even for intra-band CA). Plus, you'd think they'd want to deploy at least a 10MHz channel if they're looking to take some load off the existing n71 channel.

I wish carriers did spectrum swaps as often as they did in the past. Verizon, AT&T, and T-Mobile could easily swap and fix this issue. AT&T can take the entire PCS A-block giving them a contiguous 15MHz as opposed to the split 10+5 they currently have, Verizon could take both the D and B block and keep the contiguous 20MHz they have now, and T-Mobile could take over the E,F, and C block which would give them a contiguous 30MHz with the G-block instead of the 25+5 they have now.

I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon is the only holdout in this because this swap would benefit AT&T and T-Mobile but would leave them in a net neutral position as their 20MHz of PCS is already contiguous.

[bigsnake49]

On 7/5/2022 at 12:19 AM, Paynefanbro said:

I wish carriers did spectrum swaps as often as they did in the past. Verizon, AT&T, and T-Mobile could easily swap and fix this issue. AT&T can take the entire PCS A-block giving them a contiguous 15MHz as opposed to the split 10+5 they currently have, Verizon could take both the D and B block and keep the contiguous 20MHz they have now, and T-Mobile could take over the E,F, and C block which would give them a contiguous 30MHz with the G-block instead of the 25+5 they have now.

I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon is the only holdout in this because this swap would benefit AT&T and T-Mobile but would leave them in a net neutral position as their 20MHz of PCS is already contiguous.

They could do swaps that are beneficial to Verizon in other markets with this market thrown in for good measure.

[T-MoblieUser207]

Sprint's network
I don't know about non-keep sites, but Sprint keep sites are broadcasting all 3 of Sprint's bands still. Passed by Sprint eNB 9339 and locked all bands and was able to map and speedtest them all. Album of screenshots here.

Gig+ backhaul sites
I have added 3 new gig+ sites to the map, 1 in Lower Manhattan (eNB 45734), 1 north of Grand Central (eNB 45639), and 1 in Brooklyn (eNB 42895). There is also one in Queens that Milan posted on Twitter, but I haven't figured where that one is yet.

 

On 1/24/2022 at 7:28 PM, AirlineFlyer said:

Looks like eNB 875868 was a high capacity Sprint site with a sector pointing at Citi Field. Wonder what T-Mobile does with it.

The NYC street view car website finally updated, and it shows an even clearer view of the former Sprint site panels. That was a LOT of wires.

NYC's car also caught the latest setup recently, and its the standard T-Mobile config, 2 RFS panels with a 6449. Looks like the 2nd panel from the right is a former Sprint one, as I don't recognize it. Link to the location.

 

Keep site map
I have added/modified all mentioned sites, plus I have changed the Sprint unknown site in Astoria a little south of the RFK bridge to converted, eNB 879497. Finally, I have added a new Sprint convert to the map, T-Mobile eNB 880681.

Edited July 8, 2022 by T-MoblieUser207

[Paynefanbro]

I've got another mountaintop keep site. Once again not close to NYC but it was part of Sprint's NYC market. 

Sprint eNB 6485
Location: 41.3382970073722, -73.89405515892796

[Paynefanbro]

Not sure how we missed this but looks like T-Mobile hasn't given up on mmWave in NYC: 

 

[PedroDaGr8]

2 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

Not sure how we missed this but looks like T-Mobile hasn't given up on mmWave in NYC: 

 

A while back (around 6months ago), I posted a permit for a site in Seattle which will have n258 and n261. That one was issued recently, so it looks like they have started rolling out the test sites for n258. It makes sense, as they begin to reach saturation for n41 in many areas, that they start to roll out mmWave where beneficial.

I believe the S22Ultra (and maybe the S22+) also support n258 even though it isn't visible in band selection screen.

 

[T-MoblieUser207]

I took a glance across the city on Cellmapper to see if anymore keep sites popped up, and there is quite a bit to share.

4 more converted sites have been added, 2 in the Bronx, eNB 894559 and eNB 895040, and 2 in Brooklyn, eNB 877322 and eNB 894799.

There are 2 new "Possibly converted" sites. T-Mobile conversion eNBs have been spotted near the Sprint sites, the Brooklyn one is a confirmed keep, the Queens one isn't, but no visual confirmation they have been converted for either.

There is a new "Estimated keep site" in the Bronx, T-Mobile eNBs 895027/895028. No idea where it is yet.

 

[Paynefanbro]

Sprint eNB 73926 in Bed Stuy is broadcasting the keep PLMN

Location: 40.68555589873271, -73.941627756675

 

[Paynefanbro]

Went to Staten Island to visit a whole bunch of non-collocated Sprint sites.

Here's the route that I took: 

Since there aren't many T-Mobile Cellmapper users in Staten Island, the map isn't very up to date. A lot of the T-Mobile sites that are listed as 2/12/66 on Cellmapper have Band 41 and 71 now. It looks like T-Mobile's approach to site upgrades in Staten Island is different from the rest of the city. Most modernized T-Mobile sites in Staten Island are skipping out on the dual APXVAR18_43-C-NA20 antennas and going for a FFVV-65A-R2-V1 instead. I'm still seeing only 40MHz of n41 in Staten Island and 15MHz Band 41. Unfortunately spotting second carriers isn't easy on iPhones so I couldn't tell if there was a second NR or LTE carrier live. That said, n41 was giving me speeds of ~250-300Mbps on average throughout the borough with peaks around 390Mbps. 

While I wasn't testing Verizon, I did notice that they had C-band on the vast majority of their sites that I spotted. They also have virtually no mmWave deployed on any macros out there and I only saw one site with a CBRS antenna whereas in the other 4 boroughs CBRS and mmWave are a lot more common. AT&T looks like they haven't even started C-band deployment there at all which is odd considering how fast they've been moving everywhere else.

— — — — —

Of the nine Sprint sites I visited, only one was actually broadcasting the keep PLMN. Two were completely decommissioned (antennas removed), one still had antennas but was no longer broadcasting any Sprint signal from it at all, and two were fully converted.

1. Sprint eNB 5753/8976 is broadcasting the keep PLMN
   1. Location: 40.63805968188845, -74.16188225922848
       
2. Sprint eNB 98501/5759 has been converted and is now T-Mobile eNB 876440
   1. Location: 40.63232964181816, -74.13368964336959
      
      
       
3. Sprint eNB 75141 has been converted but it isn't live yet
   1. Location: 40.62939661971586, -74.07909837602293
      
      

 

[wispiANt]

It seems T-Mobile is finally addressing some of the on-building multi-sector "microcells". eNB 41048 in Park Slope was upgraded with B41/B71 (I think you mapped this @T-MoblieUser207), and eNB 42102 in Dumbo was upgraded with B41 (at least). Unfortunately, neither of these upgrades were caught with Streetview.

[Paynefanbro]

1 hour ago, wispiANt said:

It seems T-Mobile is finally addressing some of the on-building multi-sector "microcells". eNB 41048 in Park Slope was upgraded with B41/B71 (I think you mapped this @T-MoblieUser207), and eNB 42102 in Dumbo was upgraded with B41 (at least). Unfortunately, neither of these upgrades were caught with Streetview.

If no one gets to them by this weekend, I'll definitely try to check them out on Friday and get some pics.

[Paynefanbro]

Was checking for permits for Sprint keep sites and noticed that Verizon eNB 84004 in Brooklyn Heights is getting C-band but using 8T8R JMA MX14FIT465-01 passive antennas instead of the Samsung Massive MIMO antennas they normally deploy according to the permits online. I remember seeing a site in Los Angeles in the Cellmapper subreddit where they did something similar.

Sprint used the Nokia Massive MIMO antennas to deploy 5G on this site so I'm not sure why Verizon chose not to follow suit. Weird.

https://a810-dobnow.nyc.gov/Publish/DocumentStage/PortalDownloadedDocuments/BROOKLYN/B00678468/I1/Supporting Documents/Landmark Approval_1dc135b1bd.pdf