Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[ingenium]

On 2/11/2021 at 8:52 AM, shaferz said:

700mb/s seems like such a weird speed cap to me.  At least for residential customers, tiers are normally 100/500/1gig.  I'm struggling a bit with understanding the 700 limit that appears to be in place

It's probably a 1 gbps circuit. But you have ipsec overhead, and they likely reserve some percentage of the bandwidth so that it's not saturated completely (admin functions, inter eNB communication for CA between different sites, allowing QoS to function properly for VoLTE, etc). So 700 Mbps is probably about right for 1 gbps of backhaul.

[Paynefanbro]

Got my fastest mmWave speeds ever from a "layer cake" site in Chelsea. It recently got n41 but my phone didn't connect to it at all given I was super close to the site and within line of sight. Speeds on LTE alone were about 190Mbps. 

I've been noticing consistent ~70ms pings on mmWave citywide.

[wispiANt]

1 hour ago, Paynefanbro said:

Got my fastest mmWave speeds ever from a "layer cake" site in Chelsea. It recently got n41 but my phone didn't connect to it at all given I was super close to the site and within line of sight. Speeds on LTE alone were about 190Mbps. 

I've been noticing consistent ~70ms pings on mmWave citywide.

Dang, not too shabby!

I'm sure this has been said before, but in some ways I kinda feel like T-Mobile has abandoned their mmWave network in NYC. I haven't seen any recent buildout, they're still stuck on 2x 50MHz n261 carriers, and performance (when you can connect) generally isn't much to speak of. On one hand, I don't really blame them when they have so much n41 deployment left to do. But it's also disappointing to hear them preach about the "layer cake" when their mmWave performance (at least in NYC) is a bit underwhelming. Here's hoping they'll get back on it when we start seeing these new 5G oDAS nodes roll out.

I wonder what the reason is for the abnormally high pings you're seeing on n261. Didn't even notice that from my last post - it's a bit brutal to see a 77ms ping on n261 NSA and 13ms ping on n41 NSA, from the same site. Is this a recent development? Also, you probably shouldn't be experiencing ~5% packet loss when you're LOS...

On another note, that's an interesting setup. Haven't seen one with a single APXVAR18_43-C-NA20, and I don't believe I've seen that 8-port Ericsson (?) midband antenna before.

[Paynefanbro]

1 hour ago, thisischuck01 said:

I'm sure this has been said before, but in some ways I kinda feel like T-Mobile has abandoned their mmWave network in NYC. I haven't seen any recent buildout, they're still stuck on 2x 50MHz n261 carriers, and performance (when you can connect) generally isn't much to speak of. On one hand, I don't really blame them when they have so much n41 deployment left to do. But it's also disappointing to hear them preach about the "layer cake" when their mmWave performance (at least in NYC) is a bit underwhelming. Here's hoping they'll get back on it when we start seeing these new 5G oDAS nodes roll out.

 

Definitely agree. I'd honestly be satisfied if T-Mobile announced that they were deploying mmWave in targeted locations like airports and stadiums nationwide. Right now it still seems like they've stopped working altogether on expanding mmWave coverage with the exception of installing it at Raymond James Stadium and Tampa International Airport for the Super Bowl. Maybe they're holding out until new antennas and phones come out that support 24GHz and 47GHz spectrum since that's where the majority of their mmWave spectrum is here in NYC. Though there is nothing stopping them from deploying the 400MHz of n260 that they own here.

1 hour ago, thisischuck01 said:

I wonder what the reason is for the abnormally high pings you're seeing on n261. Didn't even notice that from my last post - it's a bit brutal to see a 77ms ping on n261 NSA and 13ms ping on n41 NSA, from the same site. Is this a recent development? Also, you probably shouldn't be experiencing ~5% packet loss when you're LOS...

I ran about 5 tests at this site but this was the only test with any packet loss. All with around 70ms pings. Even my mmWave speed tests in Brooklyn show 70ms pings. I've kinda been using it as a gauge for what 5G band I'm connected to. n41 is always in the teens, n71 is typically in the low to mid 20's, and n261 is around 70ms. It's honestly a mystery. Especially when we've seen Verizon mmWave with single-digit pings.

[wispiANt]

Speaking of strange setups, found this out in Bushwick. No idea what that little antenna is.

 

[wispiANt]

Some interesting (though kinda dated) info about 6488/6449 allocation that I hadn't seen before.

[Paynefanbro]

What spectrum blocks were used by public safety? I wonder if that was preventing T-Mobile from expanding n41 to 60MHz beyond a few areas in the Lower East Side early last year. 

[wispiANt]

12 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

What spectrum blocks were used by public safety? I wonder if that was preventing T-Mobile from expanding n41 to 60MHz beyond a few areas in the Lower East Side early last year. 

More info here.

[Paynefanbro]

eNB ID 42182 in the Lower East Side near the Williamsburg Bridge seems to be one of those sites that can give 1Gbps speeds. I was running a Speedtest near it and saw my speeds climb above 850Mbps but I was driving away from it and speeds dropped down to just over 600Mbps by the time the test ended.

Also got 490Mbps on mmWave from site eNB ID 56661 in Midtown around 59th St and 3rd Ave. I ran an LTE speed test from the same site and got nearly 300Mbps down before the network kicked me over to Band 41. On Band 41 I got speeds of about 100Mbps down and 7Mbps up.

[Paynefanbro]

Drove up to Middletown, NY and had 5G most of the way. I only dropped out of service in one area during my drive but every carrier struggles in that area according to their coverage maps. The Verizon iPhone 12 that I had on hand was down to 1 bar of LTE and T-Mobile kept switching between 1-bar of LTE and no signal.

In Middletown, 5G was pretty much everywhere that I went though the low site density meant that if I went indoors I would often drop down to 1-2 bars of 5G and a handful of times I dropped down to LTE.

I think T-Mobile is either oversubscribed or needs to increase backhaul as speeds were usable but not that great pretty much everywhere I went. Fastest speed test I got while there was 118Mbps but that was because I was within LOS of the tower. In a similar situation here in NYC, I easily see speeds over 250Mbps on n71. I averaged about 25-30Mbps outdoors and 10-20Mbps indoors. Turning off 5G wasn't any help because download speeds were virtually the same on LTE and upload speeds were horrendous compared to 5G. Indoors, I'd get 5Mbps upload speeds on 5G but I'd be lucky to get above 1Mbps on LTE.

[dkyeager]

8 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

I think T-Mobile is either oversubscribed or needs to increase backhaul as speeds were usable but not that great pretty much everywhere I went.

Same around here.  T-Mobile historically upgrades urban areas first.

[Paynefanbro]

Looks like someone in Nassau County found that T-Mobile expanded n41 to 80MHz.

 

[wispiANt]

 

[Paynefanbro]

I never anticipated that T-Mobile would cannibalize Sprint's network as fast as they have. This time last year, Sprint's LTE and 5G network consisted of:

Band 26: 5MHz
Band 25: 10MHz + 5MHz
Band 41: 20MHz+20MHz+20MHz
n41: 40MHz

Now it's:

Band 26: 5MHz
Band 25: 5MHz
Band 41: 20MHz + 20MHz
n41: —

With parts of Long Island going to 80MHz, I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming weeks we see Band 41 reduced to a single 20MHz carrier (excluding the separate 10-20MHz that's on small cells) so that T-Mobile can expand to 80MHz here.

I kinda feel bad for people who are still on the legacy Sprint network. 40MHz of Band 41 will still give great speeds and luckily Sprint's Band 41 deployment is good enough in NYC that it completely overlays Sprint's Band 25 network both indoors and outdoors however, if T-Mobile shrinks Band 41 again Sprint customers will definitely feel it. I guess that's why they're trying so hard to get people to switch to T-Mobile SIM cards.

[dkyeager]

13 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

I never anticipated that T-Mobile would cannibalize Sprint's network as fast as they have. This time last year, Sprint's LTE and 5G network consisted of:

Band 26: 5MHz
Band 25: 10MHz + 5MHz
Band 41: 20MHz+20MHz+20MHz
n41: 40MHz

Now it's:

Band 26: 5MHz
Band 25: 5MHz
Band 41: 20MHz + 20MHz
n41: —

With parts of Long Island going to 80MHz, I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming weeks we see Band 41 reduced to a single 20MHz carrier (excluding the separate 10-20MHz that's on small cells) so that T-Mobile can expand to 80MHz here.

I kinda feel bad for people who are still on the legacy Sprint network. 40MHz of Band 41 will still give great speeds and luckily Sprint's Band 41 deployment is good enough in NYC that it completely overlays Sprint's Band 25 network both indoors and outdoors however, if T-Mobile shrinks Band 41 again Sprint customers will definitely feel it. I guess that's why they're trying so hard to get people to switch to T-Mobile SIM cards.

It really depends on how many Sprint network users are left. Have any Sprint only sites been decomissioned yet?

[RaigekiNYC]

I'm still stuck with Sprint Legacy Network while my other 2 lines S9 and A71 5G are on T-mobile Network. All lines are Sprint Sim Card. I'm using Note 9, I have to turn off Band 25, 26 and 41 in order to Roam T-mobile Network due to Home PLMN 310-120.

[T-MoblieUser207]

T-Mobile may be gearing up to take 2538.2 MHz (20Mhz B41) off of Sprint small cells onto their macro network.

The vast majority of Sprint small cells I found had 2538 on them, with only a select small cell around Nostrand Avenue and President Street having 2523 (10 MHz) and 2538. Now, all the Sprint small cells I have passed recently only have 2523 instead of 2538.

In Nokia markets, T-Mobile has 2538 and 2558 (20+20 MHz) on macros with n41. Its possible they may be trying to do the same thing in NYC now, especially since the 6449 Ericsson panels can do the entire band.

 

[Paynefanbro]

Fastest LTE speeds I've ever received on T-Mobile. This was taken indoors about half a block away from eNB ID 43383 in Gowanus. A 5G speed test in the same spot was actually slower at around 380-400Mbps.

Also seeing much faster speeds in my home on LTE. I'm consistently getting ~270Mbps down and 55Mbps up inside my house. I'm unable to confirm if my site is using 20MHz of PCS but I don't know if that alone can account for speeds these high. There must be some sort of backhaul upgrade.

[T-MoblieUser207]

100 Mhz n41 is now live on Long Island. Judging from the B2 PCI, its probably eNB 45883.
 

 

[Paynefanbro]

Wow that’s awesome! In a matter of weeks they went from 60-100 MHz. Patiently waiting for that in Brooklyn  

T-Mobile really need to get around to increasing backhaul substantially though because I’m getting similar speeds at 60MHz here. 

[wispiANt]

14 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

100 Mhz n41 is now live on Long Island. Judging from the B2 PCI, its probably eNB 45883.
 

 

Anddd updated to the correct location. Jeez, that area was a mess on CellMapper.

[wispiANt]

On another note, I'm curious about the upgrade path for the Transit Wireless DAS. I know additional connectivity was on the docket for the incoming R211 trains, but I don't believe anything came out of that. Additionally, I don't think that whatever was considered/planned for the L-train renovation actually came to fruition.

Regardless, that system hasn't been touched in forever. I believe the last upgrade was a B2-add back in 2018. T-Mobile never even got around to adding B12, which they promised back in Dec 2015.

Also, I've noticed that the B2 refarm hasn't affected spectrum allocation underground. I presume that's because Sprint is only broadcasting B25/B26? Either way, would be nice to see some upgrades down there, even if it isn't a full 5G overhaul.

[Paynefanbro]

Is n2 Verizon's primary NR band in NYC? I've been confirming a bunch of Verizon sites on Cellmapper and I noticed that there aren't that many sites with Band 5 on them but pretty nearly every site has Band 2.

I've also noticed that there are a ton of Verizon sites that haven't been upgraded in what seems like years. They still have those smoky yellow antennas on them. They're probably going to upgrade them and put CBRS, C-band, and Band 5/n5 antennas on them at the same time later this year. Some will probably get mmWave antennas too.

 

[T-MoblieUser207]

On 4/10/2021 at 2:39 PM, thisischuck01 said:

On another note, I'm curious about the upgrade path for the Transit Wireless DAS. I know additional connectivity was on the docket for the incoming R211 trains, but I don't believe anything came out of that. Additionally, I don't think that whatever was considered/planned for the L-train renovation actually came to fruition.

Regardless, that system hasn't been touched in forever. I believe the last upgrade was a B2-add back in 2018. T-Mobile never even got around to adding B12, which they promised back in Dec 2015.

The R211s are still coming, should arrive later this year, last I heard they may/may not come with wifi built-in, don't know about cell coverage.

The plans for the L-train renovation happened, T-Mobile is taking their sweet time jumping on it though, as Verizon and AT&T are already on it, per this tweet:

The F train tunnel between East Broadway and York Street is next for cell coverage.

Still no idea if T-Mobile will add LTE lowband, B12 or B71 on Transit Wireless's DAS, as Transit Wireless said they were ready for B71 after the auction in 2017.

 

Quote

Also, I've noticed that the B2 refarm hasn't affected spectrum allocation underground. I presume that's because Sprint is only broadcasting B25/B26? Either way, would be nice to see some upgrades down there, even if it isn't a full 5G overhaul.

Yes, Sprint is still at pre-merger bandwidths for B25 and B26, no B41, either Sprint never installed B41 or it was removed after the merger. I also want to see some upgrades, specifically lowband, as the coverage drops between stations for T-Mobile, unlike the other 3 since they have lowband. It's fairly easy to get to 100 down on the DAS, since it allows B66+2 CA, but I wouldn't be surprised if T-Mobile plans to move straight to 5G for it.

Edited April 12, 2021 by T-MoblieUser207

[Jordanskills134]

14 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

The R211s are still coming, should arrive later this year, last I heard they may/may not come with wifi built-in, don't know about cell coverage.

The plans for the L-train renovation happened, T-Mobile is taking their sweet time jumping on it though, as Verizon and AT&T are already on it, per this tweet:

The F train tunnel between East Broadway and York Street is next for cell coverage.

Still no idea if T-Mobile will add LTE lowband, B12 or B71 on Transit Wireless's DAS, as Transit Wireless said they were ready for B71 after the auction in 2017.

 

Yes, Sprint is still at pre-merger bandwidths for B25 and B26, no B41, either Sprint never installed B41 or it was removed after the merger. I also want to see some upgrades, specifically lowband, as the coverage drops between stations for T-Mobile, unlike the other 3 since they have lowband. It's fairly easy to get to 100 down on the DAS, since it allows B66+2 CA, but I wouldn't be surprised if T-Mobile plans to move straight to 5G for it.

Was surprised when I read your message. So, I ventured out with a Verizon friend. The coverage between stations was exactly the same as T-Mobile. None of the carriers provide coverage in between stations on the subway.