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Network Vision/LTE - West Washington Market (Seattle/Puget Sound Region)


drlovety

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Three more B41/n41 panels have been installed near me:

1. Evergreen Hospital - This one is very puzzling. I first noticed it has was upgraded at least 3-4 weeks ago and have not been able to get an n41 signal from it yet. 

2. Site on the tower off 140th Ave Bothell, on the top of the hill by the 405/522 interchange. This site is a great upgrade because it provides excellent B41/n41 coverage of this interchange and a good chunk of the Bothell side of the 522.

3. Site on NE 122nd St. Redmond (next to Clara Barton Elementary and serves the area near the 124th/Woodinville-Redmond interchange). This one was a bit surprising since it is a deeply residential area, due to the nature of the area, I could see it supporting a decent amount of home internet. 

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14 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

1. Evergreen Hospital - This one is very puzzling. I first noticed it has was upgraded at least 3-4 weeks ago and have not been able to get an n41 signal from it yet. 

There’s an ongoing debate about optimization here. They’re trying to limit overlap in the area. 

14 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

2. Site on the tower off 140th Ave Bothell, on the top of the hill by the 405/522 interchange. This site is a great upgrade because it provides excellent B41/n41 coverage of this interchange and a good chunk of the Bothell side of the 522.

Do you mean 104th?

15 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

3. Site on NE 122nd St. Redmond (next to Clara Barton Elementary and serves the area near the 124th/Woodinville-Redmond interchange). This one was a bit surprising since it is a deeply residential area, due to the nature of the area, I could see it supporting a decent amount of home internet. 

That site is crazy busy, especially when 124th gets jammed. Great add. 

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12 minutes ago, RAvirani said:

There’s an ongoing debate about optimization here. They’re trying to limit overlap in the area. 

NOW they care about overlap? Ridiculous. They waited utnil they have 4+ sites within a mile or so to start caring. Shut down that stupid site by McD's, the Motel 6 site, and limit the pole by the CKC to sectors pointing away from Totem Lake. That new site they added (the AT&T colo) does an EXCELLENT job of covering huge chunks of that area. 

13 minutes ago, RAvirani said:

Do you mean 104th?

Yep, typo. 

13 minutes ago, RAvirani said:

That site is crazy busy, especially when 124th gets jammed. Great add. 

Interesting, I would have thought that the site on top of the building at the corner of 124th and WIllows plus the tower at the top of that hill would have covered it well. 

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4 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

NOW they care about overlap? Ridiculous. They waited utnil they have 4+ sites within a mile or so to start caring.

I provided the team with a lot of drive test data highlighting how rarely 256QAM/64QAM or even 16QAM was available (thanks for contributing data to the SignalCheck DB by the way). They seem to be putting a bit more thought into it now. 

15 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Shut down that stupid site by McD's, the Motel 6 site, and limit the pole by the CKC to sectors pointing away from Totem Lake. That new site they added (the AT&T colo) does an EXCELLENT job of covering huge chunks of that area. 

Give me a few mins. I recently got access to some much nicer RF planning software (the software Verizon uses) and would like to throw this area in. 

8 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Yep, typo. 

Gotcha. That’s a really great site.

9 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Interesting, I would have thought that the site on top of the building at the corner of 124th and WIllows plus the tower at the top of that hill would have covered it well. 

Those are super busy sites as well. 

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1 hour ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Shut down that stupid site by McD's, the Motel 6 site, and limit the pole by the CKC to sectors pointing away from Totem Lake. That new site they added (the AT&T colo) does an EXCELLENT job of covering huge chunks of that area. 

PCS Coverage:

ogjSbHh.png

PCS Sectors:

tmV6OIq.png

PCS SNR:

mZS8ZbT.png

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39 minutes ago, RAvirani said:

PCS SNR:

mZS8ZbT.png

So much red and that doesn't even include the site behind McDonalds. Also, not sure if it matters but the Evergreen hospital antennas are pointed a different direction. At least one of the sectors points south. 

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2 hours ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Shut down that stupid site by McD's, the Motel 6 site, and limit the pole by the CKC to sectors pointing away from Totem Lake. That new site they added (the AT&T colo) does an EXCELLENT job of covering huge chunks of that area. 

 

53 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

So much red and that doesn't even include the site behind McDonalds. Also, not sure if it matters but the Evergreen hospital antennas are pointed a different direction. At least one of the sectors points south. 

Oh no - I was simulating the setup you mentioned, which I also agree is the ideal site selection for the area.  This is the best optimization I could come up with.  Also, I should have probably included a legend...

Coverage:

  • Green: >-90 dBm
  • Yellow: >-100 dBm
  • Red: >-115 dBm

SNR:

  • Green: sufficient for 256QAM
  • Yellow: sufficient for 64QAM
  • Red: 16QAM or worse

This setup is actually pretty good from an SNR perspective.  You're not going to be able to get much better than 16QAM at the sector edge, and this covers the populated areas pretty well with 64QAM/256QAM.  Also keep in mind there are other sites that pick up the red in the outer areas - this map is intended to focus on the core Totem Lake area.

I'll simulate T-Mobile's current network for comparison shortly.

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2 hours ago, RAvirani said:

 

Oh no - I was simulating the setup you mentioned, which I also agree is the ideal site selection for the area. This is the best optimization I could come up with. Also, I should have probably included a legend...

Coverage:

  • Green: >-90 dBm
  • Yellow: >-100 dBm
  • Red: >-115 dBm

SNR:

  • Green: sufficient for 256QAM
  • Yellow: sufficient for 64QAM
  • Red: sufficient for 16QAM

This setup is actually pretty good from an SNR perspective.  You're not going to be able to get much better than 16QAM at the sector edge, and this covers the populated areas pretty well with 64QAM/256QAM.  Also keep in mind there are other sites that pick up the red in the outer areas - this map is intended to focus on the core Totem Lake area.

I'll simulate T-Mobile's current network for comparison shortly.

Thanks and my comment about the hospital was somewhat incorrect. The hospital sectors are arranges in a y-shape with the following arrangement: N, SW, SE. 

Also, thanks for the clarification on the colors and how to interpret the results. 

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Just now, PedroDaGr8 said:

Thanks and my comment about the hospital was somewhat incorrect. The hospital sectors are arranges in a y-shape with the following arrangement: N, SW, SE. 

T-Mobile's DB shows 70/180/310.  

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20 minutes ago, RAvirani said:

I'll simulate T-Mobile's current network for comparison shortly.

 

18 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Thanks and my comment about the hospital was somewhat incorrect. The hospital sectors are arranges in a y-shape with the following arrangement: N, SW, SE. 

Here you go.

PCS Coverage:

TFgvyFm.png

PCS Sectors:

70TaKx1.png

PCS SNR:

KynLlTS.png

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1 hour ago, RAvirani said:

T-Mobile's DB shows 70/180/310.  

Yeah I am an idiot, it is ENE, S, NW. 

 

1 hour ago, RAvirani said:

 

Here you go.

PCS Coverage:

TFgvyFm.png

PCS Sectors:

70TaKx1.png

PCS SNR:

KynLlTS.png

Damn, that is a freaking disaster area in Totem Lake. Overlaying them really shows the changes albeit the Evergreen site in the original has a different orientation. Still, removing that McDonalds site TRULY improves things by a LARGE amount. I honestly wonder if they couldn't lose that tower by the CKC and have improved performance as well based on the updated image. 

jxg162j.gif

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1 hour ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Yeah I am an idiot, it is ENE, S, NW. 

 

Damn, that is a freaking disaster area in Totem Lake. Overlaying them really shows the changes albeit the Evergreen site in the original has a different orientation. Still, removing that McDonalds site TRULY improves things by a LARGE amount. I honestly wonder if they couldn't lose that tower by the CKC and have improved performance as well based on the updated image. 

jxg162j.gif

The original post is how I would set the network up if I were building it from scratch.  If I assume T-Mobile's sector alignments and remove the McDonald's site, this is what you would get.

PCS Coverage:

9aphlbN.png

PCS Sectors:

UqBvTpE.png

PCS SNR:

k5dYAsn.png

It's better, but not great.  Alternatively, if we remove the AT&T colo, we get...

PCS Coverage:

cdQDDur.png

PCS Sectors:

p8jxqZv.png

PCS SNR:

XNfVeCH.png

 

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This is getting sort of confusing, so here are all the imgur links:

Ideal optimization (my opinion): https://imgur.com/a/9x3UbVK
Current network: https://imgur.com/a/JTW2JXM
Current network without McDonald's site: https://imgur.com/a/yWafnon
Current network without AT&T colo: https://imgur.com/a/xG9Ix7b

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19 hours ago, RAvirani said:

This is getting sort of confusing, so here are all the imgur links:

Ideal optimization (my opinion): https://imgur.com/a/9x3UbVK
Current network: https://imgur.com/a/JTW2JXM
Current network without McDonald's site: https://imgur.com/a/yWafnon
Current network without AT&T colo: https://imgur.com/a/xG9Ix7b

Apologies for the delay, I have been working on some process validation documents which we need to send to the FDA.

Thanks for organizing that! Here is my overlay gif of the various results:
1eKlaZl.gif

The on thing that strikes me about your optimization is that while Totem Lake mall and a couple other commercial areas are well covered, the residential areas to the NE and to the W take a notable hit. Speaking from experience, neither of those have great secondary towers serving those areas. The area to the NE is weakly served by the Kingsgate tower; which is geographically shielded and far enough away that it isn't a great option. Meanwhile, the W residential area has ALWAYS been a T-Mobile weak spot and the AT&T co-lo addresses that.

Looking at the SE03029A tower, I wonder if eliminating the North facing sector wouldn't improve things further in the Totem Lake area (from a SNR perspective). I think it is very clear that this is a prime example of addition by subtraction and they need to take a complex look at what towers/sectors should be removed from the existing sites. 

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2 hours ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

The on thing that strikes me about your optimization is that while Totem Lake mall and a couple other commercial areas are well covered, the residential areas to the NE and to the W take a notable hit. Speaking from experience, neither of those have great secondary towers serving those areas. The area to the NE is weakly served by the Kingsgate tower; which is geographically shielded and far enough away that it isn't a great option. Meanwhile, the W residential area has ALWAYS been a T-Mobile weak spot and the AT&T co-lo addresses that.

I added in a few of the surrounding sites to paint a more wholistic picture of how I would set up the network in the area using T-Mobile's existing sites (these are using my sector alignments/downtilts/TMA configs/etc, not T-Mobile's).

PCS RSRP:

1WW9W8J.png

PCS Sectors:

6gFChzV.png

PCS SNR:

FLY6lBD.png

I actually like the site in Kingsgate to the northeast.  Verizon has ubiquitous AWS in the area from that monopole and the site on Evergreen hospital, and it seems the projections mirror my experience there.  It’s crazy how much more they push their sites than T-Mobile.

Regarding the residential areas to the northwest - I see your point.  While RSRP levels look nice, SNR isn't the best - mostly 16QAM.  That being said, I think SNR is much more important in commercial areas than in residential areas because data usage tends to be much higher in commercial areas.  In residential areas, people are much more likely to be on wifi. 

I think dropping a site on one of the stadium lights at Juanita Highschool could probably close the SNR gap.  Maybe T-Mobile could trade a site there for the McDonald's site.  Electrical downtilt would have to be increased on SE03208A/270 and SE01196F/0 to accommodate the new add.

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A couple of interesting new permits I came across in Kirkland:

First one: https://permitsearch.mybuildingpermit.com/PermitDetails/PUB21-04351/Kirkland
This one has been returned to T-Mobile for correction and resubmission. That being said, first time I have seen a permit for an outright decommission of a Sprint site rather than a conversion.

Second one: https://permitsearch.mybuildingpermit.com/PermitDetails/WIR21-00397/Kirkland
Looks like they are finally going to upgrade the Kirkland Urban. It really surprised me that they didn't upgrade this site sooner. The density in that area, especially as Google and Tableu return to the office, is going to be extremely high. It could easily use n41 if not mmWave density to serve the area. The latter is especially true since it has loads of open outdoor spaces. 

 

 

 

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On 7/19/2021 at 12:59 PM, PedroDaGr8 said:


First one: https://permitsearch.mybuildingpermit.com/PermitDetails/PUB21-04351/Kirkland
This one has been returned to T-Mobile for correction and resubmission. That being said, first time I have seen a permit for an outright decommission of a Sprint site rather than a conversion.

Just spotted my first decommission in Columbus (Norwich Township or Hilliard - neither have permits online for the public).  It was a co-location near Cemetery Road and I-270 at Lyman Ct.

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23 hours ago, dkyeager said:

Just spotted my first decommission in Columbus (Norwich Township or Hilliard - neither have permits online for the public).  It was a co-location near Cemetery Road and I-270 at Lyman Ct.

I've found 2 decommissioned Sprint sites in Louisville, both were sites with both T-Mobile and Sprint. In both cases all Sprint tower equipment including the rack were removed. I haven't had time to dig through our permit site to see if I can find anything, but I'll be surprised if I do. 

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On 7/19/2021 at 9:59 AM, PedroDaGr8 said:

That being said, first time I have seen a permit for an outright decommission of a Sprint site rather than a conversion.

The Sprint site at 520/202 was decommissioned a few weeks ago. Everything was pulled off the pole. 

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FYI the Evergreen hospital n41 panels are live. They do a great job of covering I405, I was able to maintain a B41 connection  to that tower almost all the way down to Kirkland exit 18.

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  • 2 weeks later...

TMobile continues their trend of keeping and updating absurd towers.

SE02656A (18324 151st Ave, Woodinville, WA) received the full suite of upgrades including B41/n41. That site is horribly located,  serving almost nobody (it is heavily geographically shadowed).

Also, I just saw this permit for Kirkland. It appears they are keeping the Sprint mini-macro site at the top of 85th. This is along with the previously mentioned site across the 405. I fully expected this mini-macro site to get decommissioned because T-Mobile serves that area pretty well already. 

https://permitsearch.mybuildingpermit.com/PermitDetails/WIR21-00494/Kirkland

 

Speaking of the site across thr 405, I believe this permit is for said site:

https://permitsearch.mybuildingpermit.com/PermitDetails/WIR21-00477/Kirkland

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  • 3 weeks later...

The tower in the Hollywood district got the full suite (2/12/41/66/71). This is a much needed upgrade improving capacity and range in the area, expanding into some notable weak spots. 

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