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Network Vision/LTE - West Washington Market (Seattle/Puget Sound Region)


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29 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

SE63XC203 at 47.73257, -122.11774 in Woodinville. I guess this will replace  one or more of the nearby T-Mobile B12/B66 sites.

Hmm...maybe this will replace SE02338E to the west? Not entirely sure what their game plan is here...

30 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

SE73XC026 at 47.69437, -121.96558 on Novelty Hill, between Carnation and Duvall.

That's a great site to keep. 

31 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

The last one SE03XC659 at 47.80177, -122.00862 shows up in my log but it lacks a lot of info so it might not be valid. 

T-Mobile really needs a site around there. I'd be surprised if that wasn't a keep site. 

32 minutes ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Occasionally, SignalCheck will keep the PLMN as it switches towers (meaning I have a number of towers with obvious T-Mobile bands and/or Sprint sites that do not confirm as Keep sites).

Speaking of SignalCheck, if you're on the BETA, be sure to run the trail logger and upload your web data in the logs section. It would be a great help as we're growing our T-Mobile site data. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/17/2020 at 1:15 PM, PedroDaGr8 said:

SE03XC157 (Woodinville warehouse district) - I am honestly very surprised (and happy) that this tower was kept considering T-Mobile has two towers within a half mile of this one. While one was clearly going to be kept (the one in downtown Woodinville), the other at 47.76079, -122.13790 is just up the hill from SE03XC157. Based on my experience in the warehouse district area, the second tower was honestly horrible and, despite its location, didn't really cover the warehouse district at all. As a result, indoor speeds were a fraction of what I would get from SE03XC157. So from a coverage perspective, it makes sense to keep SE03XC157 but I didn't expect it to actually happen.

Update on this one - the team is considering colocating on Verizon's SEA Northwood instead of keeping Sprint's SE03XC157. I personally think that the Verizon site would be better fit, although it'll be interesting to see what they do!

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Looking at it a bit more, I almost feel like the AT&T site there would be a better candidate for T-Mobile.  It looks like its coverage area is more contained and would overlap less with the surrounding T-Mobile sites.  Here are some 700 MHz simulations (standard 5x5 @ 5035) with Commscope FFHH-65C-R3 antennas at 0/180/270 degree azimuths:

https://imgur.com/a/MIUZgrY

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On 3/22/2021 at 11:10 AM, RAvirani said:

Looking at it a bit more, I almost feel like the AT&T site there would be a better candidate for T-Mobile.  It looks like its coverage area is more contained and would overlap less with the surrounding T-Mobile sites.  Here are some 700 MHz simulations (standard 5x5 @ 5035) with Commscope FFHH-65C-R3 antennas at 0/180/270 degree azimuths:

https://imgur.com/a/MIUZgrY

I can see how SE03XC157 could cause overlap with SE02669D (the downtown T-Mobile site). That being said, it really did a good job of improving coverage in the most densely populated weak areas (blue oval). The performance from T-Mobile in these areas is mediocre at best (good outside, horrible if you step inside). This area is geographically shielded from SE02669D due to the hill structure.
 Capture.thumb.JPG.fdda57b6ef68068b3813ac0beef62615.JPG

Based on your images, it seems that neither site does a great job of addressing the bottom and bottom right portion of the blue oval. While SE03XC157 does a great job there, it doesn't do a great job at the area just north of the blue oval. This is partly mitigated by the T-Mobile site by Costco.

Overall, I think SE03XC157 is the best for this area based on population/industry density. That being said if not that one, then I agree with you about the AT&T site. It does a far better job for the north part of the blue oval and beyond, a very good job for the central part, and a bad job for the southern part.  I think the Verizon site just doesn't offer much benefit compared to SE03XC157 for the southern part or the AT&T site in the northern part.

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The problem with keeping SE03XC157 (in my opinion) is that it will largely degrade the SNR in the downtown area.  Attached are propagation maps for the standard 5x5 700MHz LTE carrier @ 5035 on both SE02669D and SE03XC157.  I was able to pull the exact Sprint sector alignment/RC height, although I sort of eyeballed the T-Mobile alignment/RC height based on satellite/street view.  As you can probably see, there is tremendous overlap.  

I also attached an SNR projection map including SE02669D and SE03XC157.  For comparison, I also attached a map of SE02669D and WA6079 (using 0/180/270 azimuths).  As you can see, there is massive overlap between SE02669D and SE03XC157 given current sector configurations.  However, SE02669D and WA6079 complement each other much better.  

https://imgur.com/a/BFSyAc4

EDIT: Corrected a few grammar errors

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11 hours ago, RAvirani said:

The problem with keeping SE03XC157 (in my opinion) is that it will largely degrade the SNR in the downtown area.  Attached are propagation maps for the standard 5x5 700MHz LTE carrier @ 5035 on both SE02669D and SE03XC157.  I was able to pull the exact Sprint sector alignment/RC height, although I sort of eyeballed the T-Mobile alignment/RC height based on satellite/street view.  As you can probably see, there is tremendous overlap.  

I also attached an SNR projection map including SE02669D and SE03XC157.  For comparison, I also attached a map of SE02669D and WA6079 (using 0/180/270 azimuths).  As you can see, there is massive overlap between SE02669D and SE03XC157 given current sector configurations.  However, SE02669D and WA6079 complement each other much better.  

https://imgur.com/a/BFSyAc4

EDIT: Corrected a few grammar errors

Excellent analysis, the AT&T site is clearly better.

The biggest and most obvious caveat though is 700MHz is near useless in this area due to the limited bandwidth. I am much more worried about B2/B66/B41 performance than B12. Those bands are also far more greatly impacted by things shielding due to hills, buildings, etc. 

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1 hour ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

The biggest and most obvious caveat though is 700MHz is near useless in this area due to the limited bandwidth. I am much more worried about B2/B66/B41 performance than B12. Those bands are also far more greatly impacted by things shielding due to hills, buildings, etc. 

Here's 700 MHz vs PCS for SE02669D/WA6079.  Most coverage from WA6079 is LoS, so its 1900 and 700 coverage patterns are quite similar.  There's a more significant between 700 and 1900 coverage for SE02669D because it isn't much higher than most of the obstacles around it.  

https://imgur.com/a/9MV8Vul

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31 minutes ago, RAvirani said:

Here's 700 MHz vs PCS for SE02669D/WA6079.  Most coverage from WA6079 is LoS, so its 1900 and 700 coverage patterns are quite similar.  There's a more significant between 700 and 1900 coverage for SE02669D because it isn't much higher than most of the obstacles around it.  

https://imgur.com/a/9MV8Vul

Thanks for doing this. I think the simulations are pretty clear, the AT&T site is a much better site choice for this area. 

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Looks like the Sprint site on the Apptio building in downtown Bellevue is getting converted! That's a great add both from a coverage and a capacity standpoint. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/22/2021 at 10:24 AM, RAvirani said:

Update on this one - the team is considering colocating on Verizon's SEA Northwood instead of keeping Sprint's SE03XC157. I personally think that the Verizon site would be better fit, although it'll be interesting to see what they do!

Looks like they changed their mind. That or they are just covering all of their bases:

Permit ID: BLD21040
Application Date: 04/08/2021
Project Address: 14125 NE 189TH ST B
Project Name: 880310 Sprint/TMO Installation
Project Description: T-Mobile to remove existing platform and equipment and extend tower 20', install new platform mount with (6) antennas, (6) radios, (1) MW, (2) lines, relocate (1) replace (1) cabinet in existing compound.

 

Interesting that they intend to make that tower 20 feet taller. It seems that would make the cross-talk worse, unless they intend to not populate the direction pointing towards town. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/8/2021 at 1:04 PM, PedroDaGr8 said:

Looks like they changed their mind. That or they are just covering all of their bases:

That's interesting! I wonder what they're thinking here...

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On 12/13/2020 at 6:23 PM, RAvirani said:

Is this the T-Mobile site on the Livengood building?

The Livengood building install happened sometime recently. I drove by today and they were painting the new B41/n41 panels. Currently only broadcasting 2x B41 but I expect n41 will turn on in a couple weeks.

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17 hours ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

The Livengood building install happened sometime recently. I drove by today and they were painting the new B41/n41 panels. Currently only broadcasting 2x B41 but I expect n41 will turn on in a couple weeks.

I take that back, n41 is live as of this morning, not too shabby.

 

HDKl2R2.jpg

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18 hours ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

The Livengood building install happened sometime recently. I drove by today and they were painting the new B41/n41 panels. Currently only broadcasting 2x B41 but I expect n41 will turn on in a couple weeks.

Great! How high are the panels mounted? And how are the sector alignments? The two sectors mounted on the southeast corner of the building overlapped a lot before. 

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4 hours ago, RAvirani said:

Great! How high are the panels mounted? And how are the sector alignments? The two sectors mounted on the southeast corner of the building overlapped a lot before. 

They replaced the original panels but installed the new ones in the same place as the old ones. The B41/n41 panels were placed to the side of them. This means on the southeast corner, the replaced panels are still essentially adjacent with the B41/n41 panels to the outside of those. 

The arrangement seen in this permit is accurate: 
http://permits.kirklandwa.gov/WebDocs/2020121135/d2c7bcf9-eab7-4c6c-bcf8-2e2a7ba04102.pdf

 I have always been confused on why that site did not have one sector directing up the hill into Norkirk and instead has all three sectors directing into downtown. 

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5 hours ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

This means on the southeast corner, the replaced panels are still essentially adjacent with the B41/n41 panels to the outside of those. 

Oh man - that's going to make the signal really dirty in downtown. 110°/150°/170° is way too close for 65° antennas - they're usually spaced at 120° intervals. 

5 hours ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

I have always been confused on why that site did not have one sector directing up the hill into Norkirk and instead has all three sectors directing into downtown. 

I'm not entirely sure on that one. Verizon intentionally nulls the northward direction on their downtown Kirkland site to prevent unnecessary noise going up the hill, although T-Mobile usually pays a lot less attention to sector overlap...

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15 hours ago, RAvirani said:

Oh man - that's going to make the signal really dirty in downtown. 110°/150°/170° is way too close for 65° antennas - they're usually spaced at 120° intervals. 

Yeah, the two corner sectors are just insane, they are almost totally overlapping. They could get essentially the exact same performance from this sector with half the equipment by mounting it right on the corner. 

PPIEqjI.jpg
 

15 hours ago, RAvirani said:

I'm not entirely sure on that one. Verizon intentionally nulls the northward direction on their downtown Kirkland site to prevent unnecessary noise going up the hill, although T-Mobile usually pays a lot less attention to sector overlap...

I don't know if T-Mobile thinks the tower at 47.684288, -122.209940 covers the area or they are relying mostly on the Kirkland Urban tower to handle things. On that note, it is ridiculous that they did not install B41/n41 and mmWave equipment on the Kirkalnd Urban site and have no pending permits to do so. When those buildings are full, there are going to be THOUSANDS of employees (across Google, Tableu/Salesforce, etc.) in that small geographic area.  

As for Verizon, they just added mmWave (I think) antennas on the power pole at 47.678967, -122.205603 (5th St). These appear to face somewhat towards the park and the marina. I will try to get a picture this afternoon. 

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1 hour ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Yeah, the two corner sectors are just insane, they are almost totally overlapping. They could get essentially the exact same performance from this sector with half the equipment by mounting it right on the corner. 

PPIEqjI.jpg

That's awful. They could have at least used 45° degree antennas spaced at 90°...

1 hour ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

As for Verizon, they just added mmWave (I think) antennas on the power pole at 47.678967, -122.205603 (5th St). These appear to face somewhat towards the park and the marina. I will try to get a picture this afternoon. 

Interesting - I would think a three-sector setup at SEA Moss Bay (the macro site is only two sectors) would cover the busy areas much better with mmWave. 

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On 4/28/2021 at 11:08 AM, RAvirani said:

That's awful. They could have at least used 45° degree antennas spaced at 90°...

Interesting - I would think a three-sector setup at SEA Moss Bay (the macro site is only two sectors) would cover the busy areas much better with mmWave. 

Here are the aforementioned antennas:

LE1ZoXY.jpg

 

5gNj1j9.jpg

I haven't seen this exact panel before and couldn't find it online. Not sure if it's in a housing or a new model but I couldn't find any images simar to this online. Identified them, they are Ericsson StreetMacro 6701 28GHz (n257) panels. 

Also, they are FINALLY installing b41/n41 in Kingsgate. 

N4zCQWo.jpg

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14 hours ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Also, they are FINALLY installing b41/n41 in Kingsgate. 

N4zCQWo.jpg

Nice! Is that the final setup? The midband panels don't seem to have enough antenna separation for MIMO...

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15 hours ago, RAvirani said:

Nice! Is that the final setup? The midband panels don't seem to have enough antenna separation for MIMO...

 

14 hours ago, belusnecropolis said:

That install looks drunk. The antenna are touching and one is in front of the other at the top lol

Definitely not the final arrangement. Drunk is the best description for the current layout. Not only are ALL of the panels somewhere between slightly and heavily askew and/or overlapping but there are multiple wires just dangling (you can see them hanging below the platform). The strange thing is every sector looked almost exactly the same. Additionally, just behind the tower, the safety wire (or whatever it is called) was still hanging away from the tower and the boom lift was still parked there as well.

 

They clearly have a lot of work left to do. I was hoping they would finish the install yesterday when I went back by there but it didn't look like any work had been done. 

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Kingsgate still isn't live yet as of yesterday afternoon. There were some staff working on it at the ground level though. 

I did discover on Monday that the site at the intersection of NE 124th St. and Willows Rd (overlooking the Sammamish River valley) has been upgraded to b41/n41. Speeds were good at almost 700mbps DL. There were still some workers in dayglo green shirts working on the roof. 

As for Woodinville, I discovered two more T-Mobile upgrade permits:

The first is to upgrade the Hollywood location (right by the round about).
Permit ID: BLD21062
Application Date: 04/29/2021
Project Address: 14836 NE 145TH ST, WOODINVILLE, WA 98072
Project Name: T-Mobile SE02670A Hollywood Substation PSE
Project Description:     T-Mobile proposes modifications to an existing telecommunication facility per plans.

The second has actually been issued and upgrades a site off Woodinville-Duvall Rd. just up the hill from the Warehouse District tower
Permit ID: BLD21033
Application Date: 03/29/2021
Project Address: 14836 NE 145TH ST, WOODINVILLE, WA 98072
Project Name: T-Mobile @ SE02656A E. Woodinville/PSE/Halsey Anchor
Project Description: The scope of work includes adding (3) antennas, replacing (3) antennas on the existing PSE Pole. Additionally, T-Mobile will be replacing 4) equipment cabinets with (2) new equipment cabinets in their existing fenced lease area. No increase in the overall number of cabinets is proposed. 
 

EDIT: Add one more for the conversion of the Woodinville Slough Sprint Site.
Permit ID: BLD21064
Application Date: 05/04/2021
Project Address: 17030 WOODINVILLE REDMOND RD NE
Project Name: 310599 National Glass SE02023A
Project Description: T-MOBILE PROPOSES TO COLLOCATE ON AN EXISTING UNMANNED TELECOMMUNICATIONS FACILITY AS FOLLOWS: TOWER SCOPE OF WORK: ? REMOVE SPRINT ANTENNAS, RRU'S, FILTERS, MOUNT KIT, & CABLES ? INSTALL A PLATFORM MOUNT W/ HANDRAIL KIT ? INSTALL (3) FFVV-65C-R3-V1 & (3) AEHC PANEL ANTENNAS ? INSTALL (3) AHLOA & (3) AHFIG RRU'S ? INSTALL (2) HCS 2.0 PENDANT STYLE HYBRID CABLES GROUND SCOPE OF WORK: ? REMOVE SPRINT EQUIPMENT CABINETS, GPS ANTENNA, & UTILITY H-FRAME W/ TELCO BOX, METER, & PPC ? INSTALL A 6'-0"x10'-0" ICE CANOPY ? INSTALL (1) HPL3 BATTERY CABINET W/ (4) STRINGS OF BATTERIES & (1) HPL3 POWER CABINET W/ (2) AMIA, (2) ASIB, (3) ABIA, (3) ABIC, (2) ASIK, (4) ABIL, (1) FSMF, (1) CSR IXRe V1 ROUTER, (1) VOLTAGE BOOSTER W/ (2) AMPLIFIERS, & (1) EXTRA AMPLIFIER ? INSTALL (1) 25 kW DIESEL GENERATOR ? INSTALL (1) GPS ANTENNA, (2) HCS 2.0 JUNCTION BOXES, & (1) H-FRAME W/ TELCO BOX, TECH LIGHT W/ TIMER, PPC, DISCONNECT, & 200A METER

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