Epic 4G Touch radios Possibly support LTE

[ductape11]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 7 January 2012

 

So I recently discovered that the Epic 4G Touch has an 800Mhz radio that is currently inactive. I asked myself, why would my glorious superphone has an iDEN frequency radio. Then i remembered that the 800Mhz spectrum was going to be moved to LTE. Needless to say i jumped for joy. This could mean that Sprint planned ahead the whole time and that my Epic 4G Touch and yours could be an LTE power phone by 2013!

[S4GRU]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 7 January 2012

 

 

Your Epic 4G Touch will work without any update on 800MHz for voice when Network Vision comes to your area. However, your device is not capable of running on LTE. It is theoretically possible that WiMax devices can run on LTE with some modification. I read a white paper on why it may be possible. However, to my knowledge, it hasn't been done yet. And also, your WiMax radio is configured for 2490-2650MHz. It won't run on 800MHz, even if it could be converted from WiMax to LTE by hacking.

 

So, the Epic 4G Touch will receive some benefits of having CDMA 800MHz capability, but sadly, LTE will not be one of them. You will need to upgrade to use LTE.

[legion125]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 7 January 2012

 

He's right. Your phone will be able to access the 800MHz for voice and it will be when Sprint flips the 1xA switch when NV is complete in your market.

[ductape11]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 7 January 2012

 

I disagree with you to some degree. LTE is implemented through software. It is not a matter of whether or not the phone supports it currently as long as it has radios that support the correct frequency. My understanding is as long as a radio in the phone can receive the frequencies that Sprint will be using for LTE, initially 1900Mhz and 800Mhz, then with modifications to the drivers and software of the phone, this would be entirely possible. I would not put it past Sprint to push an update to the radios on the phone so that they could function on an LTE based network. As far as I know the phone has 2 1900Mhz radios and an 800Mhz radio. Meaning that WiMax could stay entirely intact or could be used for Clearwire's TD-LTE. The way a radio functions is determined by the drivers and software that allow it to function. I fully believe that based on what Sprint has announced about network vision it would be entirely possible to make the changes to the drivers and allow this phone to function on Sprint's LTE deployment.

[S4GRU]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 8 January 2012

 

This is a subject I have talked over with several engineers and a even a Sprint device development manager. I have been told its not possible with the WiMax devices Sprint has developed to date. No one has yet to do it. And Sprint is not planning to do it through any firmware updates on any WiMax devices. And I was told specifically that even it could convert the WiMax device to LTE, it could only run on the WiMax frequencies. It would not be able to run on the lower frequencies.

 

I would love for it to be true. I have debated this subject with several folks the past 6 months. No one has yet to give me anything concrete except generalizations about how radios work and theories. I would love some real details. Otherwise, I'm left with what I've been told from engineers.

 

However, if its possible, I would recommend you find a way to do it for WiMax device holders and charge a few bucks to do it. You will make millions. Because Sprint isn't going to do it themselves. They've already said so.

 

I don't want to sound cocky and arrogant. I want to encourage conversations in this forum. I really do want to be wrong. I hope you're right. And if you can dig up something that can really back this up, bring it back here and post it. I will even take it to Sprint and ask for comment.

 

But the last time I spoke to someone at Sprint, he responded, 'we are losing millions on slowing WiMax device sales. If we could easily convert them to LTE, we would be screaming it from the rooftops, so we could still keep selling WiMax devices.' And that kind of logic I couldn't argue with.

[S4GRU]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 8 January 2012

 

But I was additionally told that devices coming out in 2012 with System-on-chip chipsets with software defined radios would be able to be upgraded in a fashion you outline.

[legion125]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 8 January 2012

 

 

 

Interesting. In other threads and forums it was being discussed what Sprint would do during the transition from WiMAX to LTE and from now until this summer when LTE devices come on line. Although support for WiMAX will continue until 2015, Sprint should be pushing this fact in WiMAX markets to support sales. Now it looks like everyone will hold off renewing until LTE phones come out. It also adds to the speculation as to what devices Sprint will roll out until this summer. Low end; 3G only? WiMAX (low or mid range)? or early adoption like the Galaxy Nexus? Just speculating.

[S4GRU]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 8 January 2012

 

I hope a little more future device clarity comes out of CES this week.

[legion125]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 8 January 2012

 

I hope so, if not CES, the only other event before CTIA is MWC and Sprint doesn't do anything with that. With CTIA being moved to May, it would be a long drought before any useful information is disseminated.

[ductape11]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 8 January 2012

 

Hey guys thanks for the input. That surprises me that engineers have told you that this is not possible, but I definitely see what you are saying. It seems to me that there shouldn't be any limitations as far radios are concerned to switch a radio that is receiving data at 3G speeds to update firmware and make them function at 4GLTE, but then I am a software developer so I may be looking at this too one sided. I will look into a little more about how LTE radios function and speak with some electrical engineers that I know personally and see about there opinion, but for now I will take your word for it. It just seems to me that if a phone can receive the proper frequency to get the data and can interpret how the data is sent then it should be able to be modified to fit any standard. But like I said, I beleive you I just hate that I got my hopes up. I have been working on some kernel modifications for the Epic 4G Touch and maybe I can find a way to use the LTE once the Galaxy Nexus comes out for Sprint. I would just hate to see my brand new phone not have the best of the best especially if it is at all capable. Do you know why the engineers said it was only possible for a WiMax device to function on LTE at WiMax frequencies? Just curious.

 

I really hope we see some concrete device information at CES as well. I think we wil but you never know with Sprint.

[S4GRU]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 9 January 2012

 

 

My focus on the discussions was more on yes was it possible, or no it wasn't. So I have to tell you many of the details are hazy. But it was something to the effect of...

 

in Sprint devices, WiMax is controlled by a separate radio than the CDMA radio that controls 1x and EVDO. That separate radio was controlled by an (element?) on the SoC chipset that was hard-configured to the frequencies 2496-2690. Modifying the radio software would not get past this issue. The radio software supposedly could only be modified within that range. And I think they said it was physically possible to try to physically connect to the chipset and with the right device reconfigure it. But very few people would have the skill and equipment to do it.

 

Also, beyond this, the WiMax radio was physically connected to a WiMax antenna, which is physically too small to broadcast 700-800MHz transmissions. 700MHz needs longer antennas to broadcast...something to do with physics. So then the device modifier would then try to physically reconnect the WiMax radio to the CDMA antenna. And then all the radio software would have to be remodified.

 

So then, if you could develop all the software to do it, for the radios and the OS, and then do all the physical modifications you MAY have a device that will run LTE. And how well? It could be sketchy. And if you pay someone smart enough to do all this, it's way more expensive than buying a new device.

 

So, I cannot vouch for specific details in this explanation, because it's way over my head. But after hearing it, I became very pessimistic. Especially after Sprint has said they aren't going to be even trying it. That they are just going cold turkey to new LTE devices.

[ductape11]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 9 January 2012

 

Would it be possible to modify the existing EVDO radios as they are already on the correct frequencies in order to achieve this? Im just throwing darts. I knew the WiMax radio couldn't recieve the data correctly, but what if the 800Mhz and 1900Mhz radios were used? I wonder if that might improve the chances of this succeeding.

[S4GRU]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 9 January 2012

 

That's a good question. I don't remember it being mentioned in any conversations I've had. That's probably your best hope for a successful conversion.

[strung]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 9 January 2012

 

Would it be possible to modify the existing EVDO radios as they are already on the correct frequencies in order to achieve this? Im just throwing darts. I knew the WiMax radio couldn't recieve the data correctly, but what if the 800Mhz and 1900Mhz radios were used? I wonder if that might improve the chances of this succeeding.

 

This is a great question. Both the CDMA and wimax chips run real-time operating systems to handle themselves (CDMA is often called the baseband) so your smartphone actually runs 3 OS's at the same time, in a way.

 

However reprogramming is unlikely. The CDMA chip probably wouldn't have the computational ability to do the OFDM multiplexing (a CPU-intensive process) needed for LTE/Wimax. OFDM basically allows radios to jam more bits into their transmission, enabling higher speeds.

 

Politically, any changes to radio configuration in devices requires re-certification from the FCC, a costly process that there is little incentive for carriers or device manufacturers to undertake.

 

It's more likely that the Wimax radio could be reprogrammed to "speak" LTE, but again that I'm fairly certain would require FCC approval.

[S4GRU]

Unlikely. The CDMA chip wouldn't likely have the computational ability to do the OFDM multiplexing (a CPU-intensive process) needed for LTE/Wimax. OFDM basically allows radios to jam more bits into their transmission, enabling higher speeds.

 

Politically, any changes to radio configuration in devices requires re-certification from the FCC, a costly process that there is little incentive for carriers or device manufacturers to undertake.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

And welcome to S4GRU. Thanks for joining.

 

- Robert, S4GRU

[strung]

Thanks for the info.

 

And welcome to S4GRU. Thanks for joining.

 

- Robert, S4GRU

 

Thanks for the site and forum! It's fun to keep up on all the news!

[pyroscott]

I was just thinking about this the other day. As was previously mentioned, trying to use the CDMA chip to send and receive and the WiMax chip to code would bog the system down. Also, why would they come out and say they were done with releasing WiMax phones if they could switch it to LTE with a mere software update. I read an article that said that in the future that LTE and WiMax technologies could converge, but that is a 1900 mhz WiMax to 1900 mhz LTE. It sucks though and I wish it was possible.

[Fraydog]

Greetings all... As a longtime GSM user who has migrated to Verizon's LTE system, there's another issue on WiMax devices that preclude them from ever being converted to work on LTE. USIM cards, or in the case of Verizon and Sprint, CSIM's (USIM's that work on CDMA). With no CSIM support, there is no way WiMax devices could work on LTE and no way they could use eHRPD for that matter.

 

Hope this helps.

[S4GRU]

Greetings all... As a longtime GSM user who has migrated to Verizon's LTE system, there's another issue on WiMax devices that preclude them from ever being converted to work on LTE. USIM cards, or in the case of Verizon and Sprint, CSIM's (USIM's that work on CDMA). With no CSIM support, there is no way WiMax devices could work on LTE and no way they could use eHRPD for that matter.

 

Hope this helps.

 

The SIM card aspect is not one I even ever thought about.

[MacinJosh]

Greetings all... As a longtime GSM user who has migrated to Verizon's LTE system, there's another issue on WiMax devices that preclude them from ever being converted to work on LTE. USIM cards, or in the case of Verizon and Sprint, CSIM's (USIM's that work on CDMA). With no CSIM support, there is no way WiMax devices could work on LTE and no way they could use eHRPD for that matter.

 

Hope this helps.

 

As a former GSM user I forgot all about this issue too. Thanks for reminding me of that little hindrance to current WiMax devices and the conversion to LTE.

[pyroscott]

LOL, every road is a dead end...

[autoprime]

is a sim card a requirement for LTE? i know its being used by everyone.. but is it part of the standard.. or an addition to the standard?

 

would it be possible to ever see an LTE device with no sim at all? all the data programmed into the phone.. like cdma/wimax devices have now.

 

cant see anyone every doing this.. unless they wanted to lock you out of every other system? it'd make hacking LTE a whole lot easier

[S4GRU]

is a sim card a requirement for LTE? i know its being used by everyone.. but is it part of the standard.. or an addition to the standard?

 

would it be possible to ever see an LTE device with no sim at all? all the data programmed into the phone.. like cdma/wimax devices have now.

 

cant see anyone every doing this.. unless they wanted to lock you out of every other system? it'd make hacking LTE a whole lot easier

 

I don't know if its a requirement, per se. I have seen people in forums elude that it is. But I never seen it definitively from a reputable source say that LTE devices must be handled with SIMs.

 

However , I will say every instance of a LTE device I'm familiar with thus far has a SIM card though. Even all of Verizon's CDMA/LTE devices have SIMs.

 

That, of course, doesn't mean it can't be done. But even if it is technically possible to be a SIMless LTE carrier, would Sprint want to do that?

 

S4GRU is now mobile...posted via Forum Runner

[legion125]

I think that's a leap long down the road. For myself, I'm looking forward to going back to SIM's. Although I'm use to going through the process of activating a CDMA phone, just putting your SIM in a phone and walking off to do business was great.

[S4GRU]

I think that's a leap long down the road. For myself, I'm looking forward to going back to SIM's. Although I'm use to going through the process of activating a CDMA phone, just putting your SIM in a phone and walking off to do business was great.

 

Does a SIM card in a CDMA/LTE device only handle the LTE only? Would it still have to be activated with the ESN like other CDMA devices? Or does the SIM card now also authenticate the CDMA usage as well? I don't know.