36 replies to this topic

[S4GRU]

Wow! A year lead time for a T1 is incredibly long. I call shenanigans and think that the local carriers are playing games. I certainly wouldn't put it past Verizon and AT&T to slow down the process to hamper a competitor. We install T1s all across the country and start kicking and screaming if the install interval passes 60 days. We're normally in the neighborhood of 30-45. The new backhaul will definitely alleviate the issues by cutting the ILECs completely out of the picture and making a more cost effective network. In my experience, the tipping point with T1s is generally 4. Once you need the 5th, it's time to look at other solutions such as fiber or microwave.

You know...the one area where I saw the one year lead time was CenturyLink in the Central Illinois market!!!

Robert

[S4GRU]

I wish you'd explain this to my Ericsson area network manager. This is exactly what's been happening in our market. I'm sure not all of the blame can be placed on Ericsson, though. It's reactive upgrading and not proactive like NV.

The Ericsson contract wouldn't give them the ability to upgrade T1 service to AAV for Sprint on their own, just based on performance. Ericsson can make the recommendation to Sprint and prepare a change order request to do the work. But most likely Sprint would reject that since Network Vision work is forthcoming.

Robert

[gangrene]

AAV is industry code for cable operator provided backhaul, correct?

[S4GRU]

AAV is industry code for cable operator provided backhaul, correct?

It can be cable, and often is. It's basically a catch all. AAV (Alternative Access Vendors) typically means all ethernet based backhaul solutions that are not microwave or direct fiber connection. However, even sometimes I have even seen fiber marked AAV when provided from a third party.

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[digiblur]

Migrated from Original Forum. Originally Posted 14 January 2011

I have yet to verify this, and I am very skeptical that it is true. But my wife claimed that she was getting 4G WiMax at her work on the outskirts of St. Cloud. I tried to pick it up in several spots, including her work, and couldn't connect to anything. I think she was mistaken, but I'm hoping...

I know what grumpy old men would say about it... wish in this hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled first.

Unfortunately that's how things are today in many companies.
I like to refer to it as the pizza buffet syndrome. If you barely have any pizzas coming out people are constantly taking what you put up on the line. As soon as you make a ton of pizzas and throw them up on the line, your buffet looks great. But then people see you have a bunch of fresh pizza, the word gets out and they flock to the line. Now your buffet looks the same as it did before. Exactly what happens with the upgrades. I have seen it first hand with one of the worst towers in my area. They keep throwing an upgrade here and an upgrade there but that one little tower just struggles to serve all the people in our downtown area which includes many state offices, capital, and a couple of casinos as well.

[irev210]

It can be cable, and often is. It's basically a catch all. AAV (Alternative Access Vendors) typically means all ethernet based backhaul solutions that are not microwave or direct fiber connection. However, even sometimes I have even seen fiber marked AAV when provided from a third party.

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Stupid question-

How does AAV work? Depending on the site, does the vendor run fiber to a box (aka switch) that basically supplies any company that wants access to their hookup? So say, comcast runs fiber to the tower, they offer ethernet hookups to their fiber connection for $x a month and that would be called "ethernet based backahul"? Then, in the case of direct fiber connection does fiber run straight to a new sprint basestation?

What sort of backhaul is being piped into basestations? You mentioned that Chicago is getting DS3's via centurylink (single or multiple DS3's per basestation?). I guess I am wondering if Sprint is going to run into backhaul issues again in the future. It's hard to imagine going from bundled T1's to a DS3... but 45mbit may cut it for now but won't cut it once they add another 5x5 carrier.

[digiblur]

You know...the one area where I saw the one year lead time was CenturyLink in the Central Illinois market!!!

Robert

That does not surprise me... I know someone that was just able to get 0.7mbit DSL about 6 months ago. CenturyLink is awesome!!

[gangrene]

It can be cable, and often is. It's basically a catch all. AAV (Alternative Access Vendors) typically means all ethernet based backhaul solutions that are not microwave or direct fiber connection. However, even sometimes I have even seen fiber marked AAV when provided from a third party.

Robert via NOVO7PALADIN Tablet using Forum Runner

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised given the massive infrastructure upgrades companies like Comcast and Cablevision have rolled out in recent years.

They also have the infrastructure in place to support something like Optimum Wi-Fi....

[S4GRU]

Stupid question-

How does AAV work? Depending on the site, does the vendor run fiber to a box (aka switch) that basically supplies any company that wants access to their hookup? So say, comcast runs fiber to the tower, they offer ethernet hookups to their fiber connection for x a month and that would be called "ethernet based backahul"? Then, in the case of direct fiber connection does fiber run straight to a new sprint basestation?

What sort of backhaul is being piped into basestations? You mentioned that Chicago is getting DS3's via centurylink (single or multiple DS3's per basestation?). I guess I am wondering if Sprint is going to run into backhaul issues again in the future. It's hard to imagine going from bundled T1's to a DS3... but 45mbit may cut it for now but won't cut it once they add another 5x5 carrier.

I'm not certain how the service is terminated for use at sites. However, when it comes to AAV Contracts, they are under master backhaul agreements. Sprint put out to bid their backhaul needs, and they included minimum throughput standards. So even AAV bidders still have to meet those standards, the same as microwave and fiber vendors have. AAV can be scalable by just adding another headend unit at the base station, should capacity issues arise or more carriers are added. However, in the instance of cable companies, the type of commercial grade backhaul they end up providing to Sprint is much better and faster than home service cable. Many cable companies are using fiber backbone now and can extend that fiber to the site in some instances. But this would still be considered AAV because how the service would be terminated at the site.

The great thing about AAV is it creates a competitive outlet for the whole process, lowering prices on all types of ethernet backhaul. And allows carriers to get less dependent on one type or only a few companies. In Network Vision, Sprint is using dozens of backhaul vendors. I may create a list. Thinking about it.

I don't have any more details about the CL DS3's now than I did then.

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[irev210]

I'm not certain how the service is terminated for use at sites. However, when it comes to AAV Contracts, they are under master backhaul agreements. Sprint put out to bid their backhaul needs, and they included minimum throughput standards. So even AAV bidders still have to meet those standards, the same as microwave and fiber vendors have. AAV can be scalable by just adding another headend unit at the base station, should capacity issues arise or more carriers are added. However, in the instance of cable companies, the type of commercial grade backhaul they end up providing to Sprint is much better and faster than home service cable. Many cable companies are using fiber backbone now and can extend that fiber to the site in some instances. But this would still be considered AAV because how the service would be terminated at the site.

The great thing about AAV is it creates a competitive outlet for the whole process, lowering prices on all types of ethernet backhaul. And allows carriers to get less dependent on one type or only a few companies. In Network Vision, Sprint is using dozens of backhaul vendors. I may create a list. Thinking about it.

I don't have any more details about the CL DS3's now than I did then.

Robert via NOVO7PALADIN Tablet using Forum Runner

Very interesting! I know cable cos are a great source for backhaul since they have local fiber everywhere in the markets they serve. There have been some articles on how cable operators have really helped drive down backhaul pricing.

Are there any examples where sprint runs its own fiber to a tower? If so, it seems like it would only be a handful that they do that. There was a lightreading article last year that was saying "AT&T dropped their pants" on backhaul pricing to Sprint but that's been about it.

It would be great to read an article on backhaul - so if you want to write one up, I would be the first to read it

[leerage]

Very interesting! I know cable cos are a great source for backhaul since they have local fiber everywhere in the markets they serve. There have been some articles on how cable operators have really helped drive down backhaul pricing.

Are there any examples where sprint runs its own fiber to a tower? If so, it seems like it would only be a handful that they do that. There was a lightreading article last year that was saying "AT&T dropped their pants" on backhaul pricing to Sprint but that's been about it.

It would be great to read an article on backhaul - so if you want to write one up, I would be the first to read it

Also kind of another question to go along with this Robert, with the info you get about upgraded NV towers, do you also get info about what backhaul is used? I'd be curious to see what was used in my areas towers.

[TH4RO]

So I was browsing the Sprint Website this morning and I noticed that they still offer 6 phones that are on the Nextel network. What is Sprint thinking? Anyone care to explain that logic?

[S4GRU]

Also kind of another question to go along with this Robert, with the info you get about upgraded NV towers, do you also get info about what backhaul is used? I'd be curious to see what was used in my areas towers.

In some markets, the schedule for each site shows the backhaul being used.

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[pyroscott]

So I was browsing the Sprint Website this morning and I noticed that they still offer 6 phones that are on the Nextel network. What is Sprint thinking? Anyone care to explain that logic?

LOL, I was initially going to say something about that not even qualifying as logic, but I guess even bad logic is still "logic." I have no idea why they would continue to offer iDEN when it will be shut down right away.

[S4GRU]

So I was browsing the Sprint Website this morning and I noticed that they still offer 6 phones that are on the Nextel network. What is Sprint thinking? Anyone care to explain that logic?

EOL has already been announced for iDEN devices. However, perhaps they will still sell existing inventory for existing customers as device replacement in case of damage, etc.

I would hope that they would not sell them to new customers, or if they did, they would fully explain that the system is being decommissioned soon and they will need to commute their service to Sprint Direct Connect in the coming months to complete their contract.

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[Deval]

So I was browsing the Sprint Website this morning and I noticed that they still offer 6 phones that are on the Nextel network. What is Sprint thinking? Anyone care to explain that logic?

I'm assuming they are for those last ditch customers who need the iDEN service...but I don't think the retail channel sells them anymore. Could be wrong though, have to find out.

[bgguy]

Well I can tell they have started working on the temporary fix here. It had been as bad as 10 Kbps within the last couple weeks and I am getting 400-1500 Kbps depending on the part of town and I'm sure they have more to do. I drove by one tower and could see where it looked like some ground had been dug up. Like Robert said its a short term solution because once people start using it again it will start deteriorating, but hopefully it will last until NV gets here. Yay for real 3G speeds!