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4x4 MIMO Phones + Sprint LTE

Volaris
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Volaris Member Level: 1x Advanced

Volaris

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Now that 4x4 MIMO phones are coming to the market, will these phones also double peak speeds on Sprint's 8T8R band 41 locations? 

 

It'd be cool if Sprint can get 4x4 MIMO on band 25/26, too. It could potentially boost capacity from the current ~37 Mbps for 5MHz to ~74 Mbps, or even up to ~99 Mbps with 256 QAM's 33% efficiency gain.

 

T-Mobile is sticking two 4x4 MIMO LTE bands (2 and 4) in one panel, so I'm hoping there's a possibility that Sprint can stick 4x4 MIMO band 25/26 in one panel to allow quick swap upgrades on congested towers where new towers or small cells may not be the best fit. Might even be cheaper since this would just be a one time equipment upgrade cost vs never-ending lease for a new small cell or tower.

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jefbal99 Member Level: LTE Advanced

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For some reason, I didn't think anyone was working on 4x4 MIMO for phones as it wouldn't fit in a hand held device.  Maybe it was Robert or AJ, but I don't remember the specific thread.  Something about the devices needing to be tablet sized to fit the antennas and amps.

 

Besides the e-Penis, 4x4MIMO in a phone isn't going to really solve any problems.  If a cell is already overloaded, there is no benefit to the user in the short term.  It sounds like new antennas and additional backhaul would be needed to make this into a feasible solution.  With Fiber backhaul, Sprint should be able to get that turned up easy enough, but I don't see them wanting to do a rip and replace on the NV1.0 antennas for B25/26 LTE. The NV2.0 B41 antennas were 8T8R, not sure if they'd support 4x4 MIMO from a device.

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RAvirani Member Level: LTE Advanced

RAvirani

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Besides the e-Penis, 4x4MIMO in a phone isn't going to really solve any problems. If a cell is already overloaded, there is no benefit to the user in the short term.

4x4 MIMO will double the capacity on a channel if I remember correctly so it will definitely resolve some problems. Imagine peak speeds of 74mbps on B26...

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jefbal99 Member Level: LTE Advanced

jefbal99

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4x4 MIMO will double the capacity on a channel if I remember correctly so it will definitely resolve some problems. Imagine peak speeds of 74mbps on B26...

That would only be on a under utilized site, if the site is over capacity, there is no help there.

 

I get around 10mb/s peak from Sprint and have never run into issues streaming, etc.  While those huge numbers are great for bragging/marketing, what do you need that kind of throughput on your phone for?

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RAvirani Member Level: LTE Advanced

RAvirani

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That would only be on a under utilized site, if the site is over capacity, there is no help there.

 

I get around 10mb/s peak from Sprint and have never run into issues streaming, etc. While those huge numbers are great for bragging/marketing, what do you need that kind of throughput on your phone for?

B26 edge of cell - it'd be so much better...

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jefbal99 Member Level: LTE Advanced

jefbal99

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B26 edge of cell - it'd be so much better...

Being in central Michigan, very little B26 has been deployed due to the Canadian border.  I'm not saying there isn't a benefit to having the 4x4MIMO, but to get there is very costly and I'm not sure that Sprint will invest in that type of an upgrade in the near term.

 

Long term it makes great sense

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lilotimz Member Level: LTE Advanced

lilotimz

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There will be no 4x4 on sub 1 GHz frequencies. Size restrictions.

 

Also there's no confirmation that the note 7 is 4x4 capable hardware wise and certainly has not been advertised by samsung or any of the carriers.

 

Lastly, no carrier equipment for any vendor on any of the big 4 has been certified for 256QAM. In addition, neither Note 7 or s7/7e was certified for 64QAM upload.

 

Sprint 8t8r 2.5 equipment can support 4x4 MIMO given UE support.

 

Sprint PCS equipment may support 4x4 MIMO but will require new radios and antenna sets operating in single mode operations other than dual mode. See Ericsson land with the 4x2 MIMO deployments.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X

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RAvirani Member Level: LTE Advanced

RAvirani

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There will be no 4x4 on sub 1 GHz frequencies. Size restrictions.

 

Also there's no confirmation that the note 7 is 4x4 capable hardware wise and certainly has not been advertised by samsung or any of the carriers.

 

Lastly, no carrier equipment for any vendor on any of the big 4 has been certified for 256QAM. In addition, neither Note 7 or s7/7e was certified for 64QAM upload.

 

Sprint 8t8r 2.5 equipment can support 4x4 MIMO given UE support.

 

Sprint PCS equipment may support 4x4 MIMO but will require new radios and antenna sets operating in single mode operations other than dual mode. See Ericsson land with the 4x2 MIMO deployments.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X

I'm in Ericsson land right now and my iPhone's engineering screen reports 4 transmit antennae for B26. Are you sure there is no 4x4 below 1ghz?

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lilotimz Member Level: LTE Advanced

lilotimz

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I'm in Ericsson land right now and my iPhone's engineering screen reports 4 transmit antennae for B26. Are you sure there is no 4x4 below 1ghz?

 

Tell me how you're going to do 4Tx 4Rx with 2T2R 800 MHz radios and hex port (2 low + 4 mid) antenna panels. 

 

Also iPhone field test mode is abandonware so it's not completely trustworthy. 

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RAvirani Member Level: LTE Advanced

RAvirani

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Tell me how you're going to do 4Tx 4Rx with 2T2R 800 MHz radios and hex port (2 low + 4 mid) antenna panels.

 

Also iPhone field test mode is abandonware so it's not completely trustworthy.

Maybe double antennae and RRUs? Not really sure...it is possible that there was a glitch in my engineering screen...

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lilotimz Member Level: LTE Advanced

lilotimz

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Maybe double antennae and RRUs? Not really sure...it is possible that there was a glitch in my engineering screen...

No.

 

Ericsson rrus11 b26 is not 4x4 capable, samsung cr4 b26 is not 4x4 capable, and alu branded kmw b26 is not 4x4 capable.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X

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RAvirani Member Level: LTE Advanced

RAvirani

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No.

 

Ericsson rrus11 b26 is not 4x4 capable, samsung cr4 b26 is not 4x4 capable, and alu branded kmw b26 is not 4x4 capable.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X

Ok probably just an engineering screen glitch then. Thanks for the clarification!

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Volaris Member Level: 1x Advanced

Volaris

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There will be no 4x4 on sub 1 GHz frequencies. Size restrictions.

 

Also there's no confirmation that the note 7 is 4x4 capable hardware wise and certainly has not been advertised by samsung or any of the carriers.

 

Lastly, no carrier equipment for any vendor on any of the big 4 has been certified for 256QAM. In addition, neither Note 7 or s7/7e was certified for 64QAM upload.

 

Sprint 8t8r 2.5 equipment can support 4x4 MIMO given UE support.

 

Sprint PCS equipment may support 4x4 MIMO but will require new radios and antenna sets operating in single mode operations other than dual mode. See Ericsson land with the 4x2 MIMO deployments.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X

 

Great to hear that band 41 8T8R is 4x4 MIMO ready.

 

For 800MHz, do you mean size restrictions at the tower or the device? If at the tower, can they just add an additional panel? 

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lilotimz Member Level: LTE Advanced

lilotimz

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Great to hear that band 41 8T8R is 4x4 MIMO ready.

 

For 800MHz, do you mean size restrictions at the tower or the device? If at the tower, can they just add an additional panel? 

 

UE primarily but a bit on eNB as there are hardly any commercially available 4T4R sub 1 ghz radios (required for 4xN MIMO).

 

Similar reason as to why you can't use carrier aggregation between two sub 1 ghz LTE bands. 

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jakeuten Member Level: 1x Advanced

jakeuten

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There will be no 4x4 on sub 1 GHz frequencies. Size restrictions.

 

This is plain wrong. T-Mobile already has it deployed.

 

One particular sighting left us in absolute awe. At the Times Square T-Mobile Flagship store in Times Square, we’ve observed 4 Transmit (and receive) antennas on three active LTE channels, including the low-band! We aren’t aware of any other operator in the world, or a single capable device that could utilize 4 spatial streams on a low band just yet, but it goes to show how technologically ahead of the curve T-Mobile LTE network is, and how bullish they are when it comes to network efficiency and execution.

 

 

Article from Milan Milanovic. http://cellularinsights.com/state-of-lte-advanced/

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lilotimz Member Level: LTE Advanced

lilotimz

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This is plain wrong. T-Mobile already has it deployed.

 

Article from Milan Milanovic. http://cellularinsights.com/state-of-lte-advanced/

 

Show me where 4x4 MIMO is done on the UE for sub 1 GHz. 

 

Not 4x2 which is what Milan purportedly discovered. 

 

 

 

We aren’t aware of any other operator in the world, or a single capable device that could utilize 4 spatial streams on a low band just yet

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RAvirani Member Level: LTE Advanced

RAvirani

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Got some evidence?

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

So I was talking to one of the engineers converting a clear site today and Verizon came up as the topic of discussion. He told me that a few weeks back, the company he worked for had just finished up VZW's 4x2 MIMO upgrade for bands 13, 4 and 2. I have noticed a new very large antenna added to Verizon sites in the past few months so it definitely seems plausible. I have a VZW MiFi hotspot from work but I don't believe that its debug web pages will disclose any information of benefit although I may be wrong...

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lilotimz Member Level: LTE Advanced

lilotimz

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So I was talking to one of the engineers converting a clear site today and Verizon came up as the topic of discussion. He told me that a few weeks back, the company he worked for had just finished up VZW's 4x2 MIMO upgrade for bands 13, 4 and 2. I have noticed a new very large antenna added to Verizon sites in the past few months so it definitely seems plausible. I have a VZW MiFi hotspot from work but I don't believe that its debug web pages will disclose any information of benefit although I may be wrong...

So... Just something you heard from a tower worker..... Hmm...

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

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