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bigsnake49

Wild speculation about Dish

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Dish and Charlie Ergen has always fascinated me but is it or he out of his depth? Dish has accumulated a vast amount of spectrum including nearly national 10x10 in 600MHz spectrum. I don't for a moment believe the cockamamie IoT story. Verizon does not seem interested in acquiring Dish or its spectrum. They are concentrating in small cells, LTE-U and 5G/millimeter wave. AT&T also does not seem interested. T-Mobile and Sprint have plenty of spectrum and will also participate in the LTE-U effort.

 

So where does that leave Dish/Ergen? What about Comcast? If you're going to go into wireless why only acquire a puny 5x5 sliver? Is there another player that might be interested in entering the market. Tim Farrar suggested Amazon in partnership with Dish and the cable cos. What does each partner get out of it? Dish gets plenty of bandwidth for its Sling service. Cable cos get plenty of spectrum for a nationwide network and get to market to millennials and cord cutters that live on their phones. They can also bundle wireless service with their other offering for a quadruple play. Amazon gets a network for their delivery drones and wireless service for their video/music offerings and their tablets.

 

What say you?

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Definitely an interesting theory. I guess we'll see how it plays out. Amazon is buying up a lot of companies. 

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DISH should be coming up on some build out requirement deadlines soon, right?  Could be interesting.

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Originally, I wanted Dish and T-Mobile to merge, if DT was keeping T-Mobile, while also hoping that if DT was not keeping T-Mobile, that AT&T would get involved in a bidding war with Sprint over T-Mobile. This could still happen, if AT&T is willing to put up a strong enough of an offer, though I'm not thinking that as likely as I once did.

 

Dish might still make a counter offer, though if they get involved in any way, I'm hoping it'll end up in a three company merger, with T-Mobile, Sprint, and Dish combining. I have my ideas about what might happen after that, starting with a Comcast merger with Verizon, but I won't go so far beyond that here on the forum.

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DISH should be coming up on some build out requirement deadlines soon, right?  Could be interesting.

 

I think that they have one coming up for 2020. Dish/Ergen speculated that the price per Mhz would keep going up and up. The first attempt was when they tried to buy Sprint and then Clearwire. I don't think they were ever serious about acquiring either they just wanted to drive up the price of spectrum. They did the same thing during the AWS-3 auction. But they grossly miscalculated. From 4x4 MIMO to massive MIMO, from LTE-U on 3.5MHz, and 5g on mm-wave to small cell and mini macros, spectrum prices have been driven down. Traditional wireless operators hate him for driving up prices and will not cooperate with him unless they get a great deal.

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Definitely an interesting theory. I guess we'll see how it plays out. Amazon is buying up a lot of companies. 

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I think that they have one coming up for 2020. Dish/Ergen speculated that the price per Mhz would keep going up and up. The first attempt was when they tried to buy Sprint and then Clearwire. I don't think they were ever serious about acquiring either they just wanted to drive up the price of spectrum. They did the same thing during the AWS-3 auction. But they grossly miscalculated. From 4x4 MIMO to massive MIMO, from LTE-U on 3.5MHz, and 5g on mm-wave to small cell and mini macros, spectrum prices have been driven down. Traditional wireless operators hate him for driving up prices and will not cooperate with him unless they get a great deal.

Yeah, as these licensees come up to expire, they could always just fall back into federal hands and get reauctioned. Dish is going to have to offer a hell of a deal and figure out how to fend off the FCC as deadlines near.

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1 hour ago, chamb said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dish-network-ceo/dish-co-founder-ergen-steps-down-from-ceo-role-to-focus-on-wireless-idUSKBN1DZ1ZX

Charlie Ergen to step down from his position and concentrate totally on his wireless network.  Will be interesting to see where he goes with this.

I still think that Sprint can use some of Dish's mid and low spectrum capacity. Hopefully they can partner on Dish's deployment.

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Dish has no low band spectrum.  And before anyone says Lower 700 MHz E block or band 29, that is not low band.

AJ

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10 hours ago, WiWavelength said:

Dish has no low band spectrum.  And before anyone says Lower 700 MHz E block or band 29, that is not low band.

AJ

If 700 isn't low-band, then other than 600 (which they also hold), what is?  FM?  Shortwave?  Except for 600, there's nothing lower than 700 even licensed to cell companies.

The problem with the E-block isn't that it's not low-band, but that it has no matching uplink spectrum.

- Trip

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5 hours ago, Trip said:

If 700 isn't low-band, then other than 600 (which they also hold), what is?  FM?  Shortwave?  Except for 600, there's nothing lower than 700 even licensed to cell companies.

The problem with the E-block isn't that it's not low-band, but that it has no matching uplink spectrum.

- Trip

It could be used for uplink with a midband downlink. It can also be used as a supplemental downlink. 

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16 hours ago, SprintNYC said:

http://maps.spectrumgateway.com/dish-600-mhz.html

They won a nationwide license in the 600MHZ auction.

Now granted it's only 5x5 in the vast majority of the country except around cities.

Edited by bigsnake49

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2 hours ago, bigsnake49 said:

It could be used for uplink with a midband downlink. It can also be used as a supplemental downlink. 

That could be interesting…

Band 70, which was created for Dish, is:

- Downlink: PCS H Block downlink + AWS-4 (1995-2020)

- Uplink: AWS-3 (1695-1710)

This is 25x15 MHz. It would be interesting if Band 70 could be used as a 20x15 LTE carrier (bandwidths greater than 20 MHz are not allowed) and the other 5 MHz of Band 70 downlink spectrum could be paired with the 5 MHz 700 E Block that Dish holds. 

If Sprint were to pick up the 700 MHz E Block I believe it could also be aggregated with the Band 26 for an effective 10x5 MHz pipe although I may be wrong…

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I believe AJ's point is that since it can only be used aggregated with midband, it is essentially midband,  If midband doesn't reach back to the site, you won't be using Dish 700MHz downlink only.  So its usefulness will be only where midband is present, and not a low frequency band at all.

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12 hours ago, S4GRU said:

I believe AJ's point is that since it can only be used aggregated with midband, it is essentially midband,  If midband doesn't reach back to the site, you won't be using Dish 700MHz downlink only.  So its usefulness will be only where midband is present, and not a low frequency band at all.

If it is used as a supplemental downlink to AWS and PCS then the primary band in that aggregation scheme will be the AWS band or PCS band. I would use it as downlink for coverage at the coverage edge (exurban, suburban, rural). Have it deployed with 700Mhz spacing. Use it when you're farther from the site or inside a concrete bunker. In this way it will be used only where needed. 

AJ also forgot that Dish won nationwide licenses in the 600MHz auction. Now granted some of them won't be available for a while (2020?).

Edited by bigsnake49

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20 minutes ago, bigsnake49 said:

If it is used as a supplemental downlink to AWS and PCS then the primary band in that aggregation scheme will be the AWS band or PCS band. I would use it as downlink for coverage at the coverage edge (exurban, suburban, rural). Have it deployed with 700Mhz spacing. Use it when you're farther from the site or inside a concrete bunker. In this way it will be used only where needed. 

AJ also forgot that Dish won nationwide licenses in the 600MHz auction. Now granted some of them won't be available for a while (2020?).

Have fun trying to get all the various phone manufacturers to agree to add this mess to their phones. Then figure the expense to add it to all the cell sites for very little benefit.

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22 minutes ago, chamb said:

Have fun trying to get all the various phone manufacturers to agree to add this mess to their phones. Then figure the expense to add it to all the cell sites for very little benefit.

Band 29 is already supported by phones as far back as the LG G3 and iPhone 6. According to Fiercewireless:

"AT&T is quietly deploying a 10 MHz block of 700 MHz spectrum in New York and other markets, according to Walter Piecyk of BTIG Research. And that could position it to swing a spectrum deal that would benefit Dish Network.

 

The deployment is being used for increased capacity and faster data speeds, supplementing AT&T’s PCS and WCS spectrum. It’s a combination of two adjacent 6 MHz blocks of spectrum D and E, Piecyk noted in a blog post. AT&T owns both blocks in some markets, covering one-fourth of the population in some of the nation’s biggest cities."

https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/at-t-s-band-29-deployment-sets-up-potential-spectrum-deal-dish-piecyk

Later on in the same article Piecyk supports a spectrum swap between AT&T and Dish of AT&T's 600MHz winnings and Dish's 700Mhz Band E. 

Edited by bigsnake49

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1 hour ago, bigsnake49 said:

If it is used as a supplemental downlink to AWS and PCS then the primary band in that aggregation scheme will be the AWS band or PCS band. I would use it as downlink for coverage at the coverage edge (exurban, suburban, rural). Have it deployed with 700Mhz spacing. Use it when you're farther from the site or inside a concrete bunker. In this way it will be used only where needed. 

AJ also forgot that Dish won nationwide licenses in the 600MHz auction. Now granted some of them won't be available for a while (2020?).

It still would only be available when PCS or AWS makes it back to the site.  If you don't have a synchronous link back on the CA frequency pairing, you lose connection and it will look for another band or band combo.  In order for that 700MHz downlink to be used, it must be actively paired and communicating with the midband CA channel.  Thus making the 700MHz channel only as effective as its midband pairing. So to claim that 700MHz downlink only channel as not truly low band spectrum is profoundly accurate, despite its low frequency number. 

Just remember, all cellular, whether data or voice requires a circuitous connection, up and down.  Whether CA or not.  If your data is coming to the device via CA (700+AWS or 700+PCS), it can only go back by AWS or PCS.  If you are out of range for the AWS or PCS uplink data return to the site, your device will have zero bars/no signal or switch to another band altogether.  And throughput will cease.  A circuitous connection is required.  Your device would not be able to ask for the site to get data for you. You're out of range. The lowest common denominator is in effect when you pair low band DL only with midband or highband.  And currently 700MHz cannot be paired with other low band.

It would be better for range to have 700MHz to be the uplink, actually.  Since the site can broadcast signal much higher than they do.  But your device is a weak transmitter.  It would function better the other way around.  Because the site can extend the usefulness of PCS and AWS much further than they do now, it's the device capability of returning the signal is the limiting factor. Having 700MHz on the uplink and a strong PCS or AWS signal pairing for DL would provide greater range scenario.  But that's not in play with the current scenario with Dish.

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Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing to have the ability to add 5MHz of downlink capacity to pair with a midband channel. It makes the midband spectrum more useful.  It just will act more like an additional 5MHz of midband spectrum. It won't provide the benefits of low band spectrum.  That's my point. And I think that's the point of AJ's succinct post. He was able to say in a sentence something I dragged way, way out. :)

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11 minutes ago, S4GRU said:

It still would only be available when PCS or AWS makes it back to the site.  If you don't have a synchronous link back on the CA frequency pairing, you lose connection and it will look for another band or band combo.  In order for that 700MHz downlink to be used, it must be actively paired and communicating with the midband CA channel.  Thus making the 700MHz channel only as effective as its midband pairing. So to claim that 700MHz downlink only channel as not truly low band spectrum is profoundly accurate, despite its low frequency number. 

Just remember, all cellular, whether data or voice requires a circuitous connection, up and down.  Whether CA or not.  If your data is coming to the device via CA (700+AWS or 700+PCS), it can only go back by AWS or PCS.  If you are out of range for the AWS or PCS uplink data return to the site, your device will have zero bars/no signal or switch to another band altogether.  And throughput will cease.  A circuitous connection is required.  Your device would not be able to ask for the site to get data for you. You're out of range. The lowest common denominator is in effect when you pair low band DL only with midband or highband.  And currently 700MHz cannot be paired with other low band.

It would be better for range to have 700MHz to be the uplink, actually.  Since the site can broadcast signal much higher than they do.  But your device is a weak transmitter.  It would function better the other way around.  Because the site can extend the usefulness of PCS and AWS much further than they do now, it's the device capability of returning the signal is the limiting factor. Having 700MHz on the uplink and a strong PCS or AWS signal pairing for DL would provide greater range scenario.  But that's not in play with the current scenario with Dish.

I have also advocated using Band D&E as uplink. But I think it is better for Dish to trade it's Band E holdings for AT&T's 600MHz holdings. Also get hold of Comcast 600Mhz holdings in some kind of arrangement so that Comcast can roam off Dish's 600Mhz after WiFi and 3.5GHz CBRS. Then horse trade some of that abundant urban spectrum to T-Mobile for a nationwide 5MHz slice for the rural areas to add to its already existing 5Mhz for a respectable 10MHz nationwide and much more in the cities. I also don't believe that Dish wants to deploy its' network for IOT. There is no money in IOT certainly not enough to deploy a $10B nationwide network. I believe that Dish wants to appeal to cord cutters and sell them skinny bundles or even ala carte video. Will its midband holdings be enough even though they're very decent? Maybe in the beginning but in the end I would think that a partnership between Sprint and Dish makes way too much sense. Dish's deployment cost will be cut substantially if they partner with Sprint. Sprint gets access to Dish's midband and low band spectrum and content. Dish gets another outlet for their video offerings and can offer triple play for their customers.

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14 hours ago, S4GRU said:

I believe AJ's point is that since it can only be used aggregated with midband, it is essentially midband,  If midband doesn't reach back to the site, you won't be using Dish 700MHz downlink only.  So its usefulness will be only where midband is present, and not a low frequency band at all.

Can you remind me why the 700 MHz E Block cannot be aggregated with non-700 lowband, Cellular or SMR for example?

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2 hours ago, RAvirani said:

Can you remind me why the 700 MHz E Block cannot be aggregated with non-700 lowband, Cellular or SMR for example?

Separation required for sub 1 ghz frequencies is troublesome. It's why low band inter and intraband CA has not been implemented and 4x4 MIMO on sub 1ghz frequencies at UE level is almost impossible.  

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On 12/5/2017 at 6:09 PM, SprintNYC said:

They won a nationwide license in the 600MHZ auction.

Yeah, I have blocked off that abomination from memory.  We did not need even more mobile spectrum thrown at an already overly convoluted set of bands.  And the way the auction wrapped up was a big disappointment.

AJ

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