4k Televisions

[Arysyn]

So, here is something new and different for S4GRU. I'm in the market to get a new 4k tv, actually a replacement model of some sorts for the 55"-inch LG C6 OLED I bought last year around Black Friday, which a bit over a month ago developed image retention that has kept worsening over time.

 

I'm considering three possibilities to replace/upgrade the tv, which are either a Samsung Q8 or Q9, the Sony A1E, or my current preference, the Sony Z9D.

 

My reason for starting this thread is for general opinions, preferences, etc., basically anything related to 4k televisions.

[Dkoellerwx]

I'm a heavy LG user, bought a 65" 3D 4K with HDR model last Spring. So far it has been fantastic for me. I don't think you can really go wrong with a Sony, Samsung or LG so long as you stick to the mid and upper range. 

 

What are the differences between the models you are looking at? Still busy as work so can't do a whole lot of research at this moment. 

[Arysyn]

I'm a heavy LG user, bought a 65" 3D 4K with HDR model last Spring. So far it has been fantastic for me. I don't think you can really go wrong with a Sony, Samsung or LG so long as you stick to the mid and upper range.

 

What are the differences between the models you are looking at? Still busy as work so can't do a whole lot of research at this moment.

3D is a big advantage for sure, and it sounds like you got your tv at the right time, just as I did last year, which was during the Black Friday sales. The LG OLED C6 model I currently have is a curved model, and I can tell a bit more of an "immersion" imaging to it, compared to a flat screen, though the difference certainly isn't that much. The 3D feature is better for that immersive viewing experience, though unfortunately the 2017 television models have completely removed the 3D feature, all except Sony's carryover from 2016, the Z9D, which currently is my top consideration to replace the LG C6 that is defective.

 

The tv was working great for several months, until recently when image retention started. I've been very careful maintaining the tv properly, regularly running the screen adjustment features meant to help prevent/reduce worsening image retention/burn-in, which I've learned the importance of from having used a few AMOLED displays on smartphones, despite the differences between Samsung's AMOLED technology from that of LG's OLED using white OLEDs with a color filter.

 

When I was at Best Buy last night, one of the sales managers involved out of the four various employees all talking with my mother and I at the same time frame, as there were very few customers there last night, told me he's personally seen three OLED tv sets with burn in and that Sony's image processing advancements over LG's, isn't really going to help.matters with image retention/burn-in on Sony's A1E tv any better than LG's OLED tv models.

 

This was a bit disappointing, because my reasons for wanting the A1E is for the somewhat better non-3D movie viewing, set placement ergonomics in my room, and viewing angle, besides the $1500 less in price difference, in contrast to the Z9D ($3,999 vs $5,499). The Z9D will require me to make a somewhat inconvenient furnishing adjustment in my room, being that its 65"-inch starting point, versus the 55"-inch size of the LG C6 I have, and the Sony A1E.

 

However, the Sony Z9D has alot of advantages too, such as 3D and no image retention/burn-in issues. Plus, the employees at Best Buy and at Abt both have told me the Z9D would be better for gaming, considering input lag, though not as good as Samsung's new QLED tvs, which adds a new issue to my decision making. While the Z9D looked flawless at Best Buy and at Abt in my perspective, my mother has mixed opinions, which this tv might eventually become hers, depending on how my health holds up.

 

At Best Buy, the Z9D was installed a bit high up above the A1E. It would have been better if they were side by side. Anyways, she couldn't get the best image of it there, whereas at Abt, she swears she sees a difference in brightness between the sides of the display. I don't happen to see the any differences, but it could be that she is sensitive to the Z9D's unique backlighting system. She prefers the image of the Samsung QLED, and there are some things I like about the QLED too.

 

It has really impressive color, the separated input dock would make connections easier than on the back of the tv, and it has the best remote I've seen on any tv, which when I used it at Abt, it was very easy and intuitive to control. Sadly though, it is edge-lit, and no 3D. I'm going back to Abt next week and will go over looking at these tvs again.

[red_dog007]

You'll never get a good imagine in store, even if they bother to properly calibrate it.  It's too bright in those places, unless you are putting your TV in a sunroom, or room with similar lighting that is for some reason always on when you watch the TV. Sometimes they have those dark rooms, but usually only have a couple TVs in them.

 

If you bought the TV at Black Friday, should still be under warranty, no?  How bad is the imagine retention?  I'm on a 7yr old Plasma, it has imagine retention but goes away fairly quickly still.

 

I kinda doubt QLED is worth the price premium.  Doesn't really seem to improve on LEDs weaknesses. Go for the K9/K8 maybe?

 

All the TVs you are looking at are solid, but where are the fine areas of concern?  They all should be at least 10-bit panels.  If not, remove them from your list.  Any of them happen to be 12-bit?  If you keep TV for a long time, that could be the route to go. If you game, get the one with the lowest input lag.  If you watch movies, get the one with the best blacks maybe.  You watch a ton of sports or action films?  Get one that handles motion the best. If you care about HDR, get the one with the best HDR. If you hook up a PC, do they all do 4:4:4 Chroma? Any of them do 120Hz at 1080p? Etc. Do you need 3D? Are any of them promising HDMI 2.1 support when the spec is finalized later this year?

 

Going with the cheaper set on your list is always an option too.  You are in the price point area of diminishing returns per $.  Get the model right below the top end model maybe even.  Usually the difference there is indiscernible. 

 

Also, when is the next TV expo?  I think a dynamic refresh could be a big possibility.  With the next Xbox One supporting Freesync 2.0, I'm hoping we get it in TVs.

 

I also know you are wanting to kinda have a new topic here, but with what you are looking at, it might be too high-end/technical with the differences?  Might be a better topic suited for AVSForum if you are really wanting some solid advance.  Doesn't really seem like you are just wanting to BS around about TVs but looking for some solid advanced technical advice on what is best to get from people who have experience with the sets. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by red_dog007

[uecker87]

I would personally stick with OLEDs - I hate LCD/LED.  I bought a Samsung KS8000 around Christmas and the picture was horrible in my view.  Horrible viewing angles, dirty screen effect, the list goes on.  All instances of burn-in on OLEDs, I have found to be temporary and should go away under normal usage (and they have a setting in there somewhere that runs a process for about an hour that *should* remove it).  And I heard the 2017 models are a little bit better as well with regards to burn-in.

 

I am still rocking a Panasonic Plasma as our main TV (about 6 1/2 years old and still probably about as good as it gets for sports and action/fast motion films).  Still no burn-in, but I know to make sure to never leave it on a static image for too long.  I now use an Apple TV on it for DirecTV Now and the default screensaver on the Apple TV lets me relax about it too.

 

I want to make the jump to OLED, but I just don't see enough 4k content out there to justify the price.  I have a low-end Vizio 4k TV for my man-cave that I use for gaming due to the extremely low input lag, but I was able to pick that up for about $300.

 

My eye is still on the LG B6 (2016) model.  If it gets any lower here within the next few months, I might just make the impulse buy.

 

Edit:  I personally use the Rtings website a lot for their reviews on HDTVs.  Very good info and a good quick reference to compare models.

[Arysyn]

Thank you red_dog007 and uecker87 for your responses and input on the subject.

 

I had two reasons for starting this thread, for both sharing my recent experience and my replacement planning, along with reading others general tv preferences and current setups. I've been reading AVSforum for several hours the past few days getting alot of information, which has been helpful. I may post there if I don't feel that I can make a decision on Monday when I visit Abt, something I'm hoping I can do then, but if not, I'll try asking some questions on that site.

 

You're definitely right about these stores being bright. Best Buy use to have their tv setups in darker areas in the store, but now they are all out in the open under their newer, very cheap and ugly-looking fluorescent lighting. Best Buy at least use to have a domed-shape lighting setup that while bright, wasn't as visually fatiguing as what they have now. Combined with having tvs displayed out right under them, its really difficult to make a proper judgement.

 

Abt however, is much better in all, but one particular section of tvs. Hopefully, they've put the new Sony A1E OLED next to where the Sony Z9D has been the past few weeks, because then I should be able to get a better viewing of the A1E than I did at Best Buy. I'm also still going to look at the Samsung, which I'm hoping they will have the Q9F QLED model out on display Monday. The only QLED model I've seen there thus far, has been the Q7F, which is technically inferior to the Q9F by quite alot. While both are edge lit backlighting, the Q7F has somewhere around 6-8 zones of bottom edge backlights, whereas the Q9F has 32 zones of right/left side edge backlights.

 

However, I'm still preferring one of the two Sony models still, with the A1E as my current lead. I read today that the timing of the image retention on LG's OLED panels, which Sony uses, has been reduced between the 2016 C6 model s(the one I have that has been bad with IR) and the 2017 C7 model :

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c6?uxtv=36ef

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c7?uxtv=36ef

 

Both the Z9D, which is LED/LCD and the A1E, which is OLED, again both are Sony, have 10-bit panels. I'm unsure exactly what company Sony gets the Z9D panel from, which is a VA-based panel. That has me a bit concerned, as I haven't yet been able to locate an answer about this online. However, the A1E panel, the OLED, is from LG, but uses Sony's processing, which is suppose to be industry-leading. Part of that, I have read, is that it upscales the video source using 14-bit processing. I'm not exactly sure what this means, other than that it results in a very smooth image on either set, better than at least most of Sony's competitors.

 

The Z9D has 3D, which is somewhat important to me, but I ought to be able to do without, as I don't have a 3D movie collection. Although, it is nice to have for certain adventure/puzzle solving games. The 3D on it is an active system, which means full resolution, unlike a passive system. The panel on it is 120Hz, which hopefully is fast enough to avoid the crosstalk and flicker issues I've read about can happen using an active 3D system. Strangely, it doesn't appear as any tv manufacturer is using a native 240Hz panel anymore. Its either 60Hz or 120Hz. If I get the Z9D, hopefully its 120Hz will be fine. The A1E OLED tv does not have 3D.

 

I'm going to be using the tv for watching alot of drama and documentary videos with my mother, which is an advantage of the OLED considering its darker black levels. Yet, the LED/LCD has 3D and gets brighter, which is better for gaming. I don't watch any sports though, so that isn't an issue. Also, I'm still learning about gamma and the appropriate level settings, which I would imagine each of the two differing sets has its pros and cons regarding gamma levels.

 

Regarding my current LG C6 OLED, it is under warranty. My mother has checked and verified that upgrading to a new set from the current one, regardless of whichever we choose, will be covered by the warranty.

[Arysyn]

Oh, one issue I forgot to respond to...

 

The image retention on the LG C6 OLED I have, seems to last anywhere from 10-15 minutes on the tv's Amazon app, based from the color icons and backgrounds, to over a few hours from minimal gaming. Using the tv maintenance features isn't helping much. I'm hoping that between the advancements mentioned in the rtings links I posted showing a big decrease in image retention on the 2017 OLED panels in contrast to those 2016 models, along with Sony's image processing features, will benefit the A1E.

[red_dog007]

Thanks for sharing!  I've been eyeballing sets but mostly the Samsung K8000 and an equivalent Vizio.  Can't go less then 65" @ 4k the distance the couch is from the TV.  Solid TVs, but more entry-level high-end. But if TVs get Freesync,

 

Whatever you get, take some pictures! 

 

Also, what kind of store is ABT like? Never heard of it.

[WiWavelength]

The image retention on the LG C6 OLED I have, seems to last anywhere from 10-15 minutes on the tv's Amazon app, based from the color icons and backgrounds, to over a few hours from minimal gaming. Using the tv maintenance features isn't helping much. I'm hoping that between the advancements mentioned in the rtings links I posted showing a big decrease in image retention on the 2017 OLED panels in contrast to those 2016 models, along with Sony's image processing features, will benefit the A1E.

 

The Sony OLED quite possibly is using a 2016 LG OLED panel.  Both competition and development cycle oft dictate such when incorporating the panel from an outside supplier that also is a competitor.

 

AJ

[Arysyn]

The Sony OLED quite possibly is using a 2016 LG OLED panel. Both competition and development cycle oft dictate such when incorporating the panel from an outside supplier that also is a competitor.

 

AJ

I heard that too early on around when the tv was announced, but some of the latest reports make it seem newer, such as having an advanced pixel shift technology that wasn't available in the 2016 LG panels. The difference apparently is the 2016 version would shift pixels on the entire display at timed intervals, in order to prevent image retention and burn-in potential. The 2017 advanced pixel shift only does this in certain areas of the display when there is detected potential trouble, perhaps focusing on areas that have been static longer.

 

The Rtings website in a very timely fashion unique to the moment I am considering buying the model, just today revealed their analysis for the Z9D, and while the reviews were good in some aspects important to me, there were others that weren't too good. So, as of the moment until I go back to Abt on Monday, I'm preferring the A1E, hoping that if I do get it, the image retention issue won't be so bad, if any.

 

For the most part though, I like the OLED technology used in televisions more than I do in smartphones.

[WiWavelength]

Sony XBR OLED calibration.  Mixed results.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/sony-xbr-65a1e-uhd-hdr-oled-tv-review/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=AVSForum.com_daily&utm_source=AVSForum.com20170428

 

AJ

[bigmachine]

4K? 8K is where it's at.

 

And a unicorn somewhere dies each time 23.976 fps footage is destroyed by 120 Hz displays.

[Arysyn]

Thanks for sharing! I've been eyeballing sets but mostly the Samsung K8000 and an equivalent Vizio. Can't go less then 65" @ 4k the distance the couch is from the TV. Solid TVs, but more entry-level high-end. But if TVs get Freesync,

 

Whatever you get, take some pictures!

 

Also, what kind of store is ABT like? Never heard of it.

Busy evening tonight reading stuff online and dealing with a medication issue I just now finally finished getting accomplished. Medical injections can be a very difficult process sometimes, which to make easier I rely on watching tv as a helpful measure to keep me from getting frustrated, this time around playing the movie "Beyond the Black Rainbow" on for background.

 

BtBW is a science fiction-based horror movie, which I watch often enough to take notice of the black levels. This type of movie benefits alot from the technology used for OLED, in shutting off the unused pixels in dark scenes. BtBW has plenty of them, including scenes where a bunch of a black tar-like substance is used throughout a drug trip sequence, which I can imagine LCD's gray tones to black imaging would somewhat reduce the experience quality of the movie.

 

I'll take some photos while I'm at Abt on Monday with the Lumia 950xl I have. I'll also look to see if they have the Samsung K8000 on display while I'm there. If its on display, I'll take photos of it and post here on S4GRU of my viewing impressions of the K8000 and the other televisions. Perhaps I'll make a short video documenting some of them. After all, I know that I really appreciate the video someone made on YouTube of the Sony A1E OLED and a 2017 LG OLED. I'll paste the video here and then I'll go read the link AJ posted here.

[Arysyn]

[WiWavelength]

I heard that too early on around when the tv was announced, but some of the latest reports make it seem newer, such as having an advanced pixel shift technology that wasn't available in the 2016 LG panels. The difference apparently is the 2016 version would shift pixels on the entire display at timed intervals, in order to prevent image retention and burn-in potential. The 2017 advanced pixel shift only does this in certain areas of the display when there is detected potential trouble, perhaps focusing on areas that have been static longer.

 

Pixel shifting to minimize image retention is nothing new.  And it should not be a function of the panel itself -- but rather the electronics and processing that drive the panel.  So, I would not jump to any conclusions about panel provenance based on pixel shifting.  In LG OLED TVs, the electronics, processing, and panels are LG.  In the one Sony OLED TV, the electronics and processing are Sony, only the panel is LG.

 

AJ

[red_dog007]

4K? 8K is where it's at.

 

And a unicorn somewhere dies each time 23.976 fps footage is destroyed by 120 Hz displays.

Good thing most decent TVs deal with this shortcoming.

[WiWavelength]

And a unicorn somewhere dies each time 23.976 fps footage is destroyed by 120 Hz displays.

 

Not 120 Hz refresh rate displays, but motion interpolation features activated on 120 Hz refresh rate displays "destroy" 24 fps footage.

 

AJ

[Arysyn]

Sony XBR OLED calibration. Mixed results.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/sony-xbr-65a1e-uhd-hdr-oled-tv-review/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=AVSForum.com_daily&utm_source=AVSForum.com20170428

 

AJ

I think it is fair to say in an analogy, such as the one I'll write here in a moment, comparing preferences appropriately with what I know about in relation to television watching and the varying differences with the technological aspects of these televisions, especially in contrast involving their positives and negatives with how they accommodate to serve their viewers' particular preferences.

 

If someone watches mostly drama, horror, and science fiction which mainly are darker and cinematic, OLED is preferable. If someone watches mostly comedy, sports, and animation which mainly is brighter and vivid, LCD is preferable. No offense to anyone, but I despise, dislike/hate, loathe, and any other other appropriate word to describe my negative opinions regarding sports. I don't share the same disdain for comedy and animation as I do for sports, though I certainly share the same lack of interest in them all.

 

This obviously means OLED is better for me, at least based from these reasons. Gaming purposes appear to be mixed from what I've read online. Imaging quality seems better on OLED, so long as the motion handling on the panel is fast enough to handle it. Analysts say that the 2017 models are faster than the 2016 models, and are fast enough for all gaming, except for some online multiplayer games. I'm not concerned about that being an issue for me.

 

The main concern I have is with image retention and burn-in. If indeed the Sony A1E is using LG's 2016 OLED panels, that'll be a problem. If from 2017, especially regarding talk of the advanced pixel shifting technological features, then that helps to alleviate those concerns a bit.

[Arysyn]

Pixel shifting to minimize image retention is nothing new. And it should not be a function of the panel itself -- but rather the electronics and processing that drive the panel. So, I would not jump to any conclusions about panel provenance based on pixel shifting. In LG OLED TVs, the electronics, processing, and panels are LG. In the one Sony OLED TV, the electronics and processing are Sony, only the panel is LG.

 

AJ

You're correct about it not being new, but supposedly its differently implemented this year, according to the resources I've been reading and watching online about this. I mentioned it earlier here, how last year and before then (I'm assuming before then, unless there was a different method I still don't know about) the pixel shifting was done on an entire panel basis in a timed fashion.

 

Apparently this year its suppose to be different where the pixel shifting is only done in certain areas where the panel senses a potential problem, out of which until I know more specifically about it, I'm assuming its done on images that have been static for a certain amount of time, or if there is technology that senses retention, I'm not sure.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, AJ. I actually think more your way about this, but I asked a Magnolia Best Buy management representative the other day (not one of the hardly trained unknowlegeable people working at so many of these stores and as a huge majority at wireless carrier retail stores.). This guy was older and intelligent about things I asked him. Now, he didn't agree with me when I first thought the Sony in general might likely have less image retention, due to its motion processing. He specifically told me its based in the panel, but didn't specify the model year of the panel itself.

 

However, speaking of the panel's model year, here is an article I found and read online : http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1485764979

 

"As said, Sony refused to share specifications but since this is a 2017 LG Display OLED panel we know that peak brightness is somewhere around 800-1000 nits, depending on picture settings. DCI-P3 coverage is 99% and black is, well, black.".

 

So, that is good news that it is a 2017 panel. I'm figuring if the pixel shifting technology indeed is panel based, then that could explain the panel model year differences I suspect from what I've been reading. Otherwise, I'm not so sure, as of yet.

[Arysyn]

Hey everyone!

 

I'm at ABT now and will create a video to post here sometime later today.

 

Oh, and also... red_dog, I'll look for the Samsung K8000 for you while I'm there, but I won't be able to check on any Vizio tvs there, since ABT doesn't sell any Vizio products from what I can tell so far.

 

Another thing. AJ, apparently Sony indeed is using the 2017 model version of the OLED panel.

 

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1492757435

 

Sony A1 is based on the X1 Extreme processor, comes with Android 6.0 onboard, is built on a 2017-generation OLED panel, and has a brand-new sound system.

[Arysyn]

Quick update here...

 

I was making a video, and I asked about the K8000 and had to stop recording due to not wanting to record someone who may not want to be included, etc. He told me the K8000 was discontinued, red_dog007, but you may be able to find it online, etc.

 

I'm going to try another recording. Its been sort of difficult with my health, but I'll try getting the other tvs.

[WiWavelength]

FYI, price wise, this is arguably the worst time of the year to be shopping for a current model year TV.  CES 2017 TVs just now are hitting the floor -- at MSRP.

 

AJ

[Arysyn]

Ugh, I don't think I've ever enough appreciated the need for having a good audio/video recording system in a smartphone, until today. The Lumia 950xl just is not picking up on my speaking into the mic. I can barely hear myself speak. So, I'm going to cancel trying to do this. Very sorry, S4GRU.

 

I'll still give my impressions though later on. Also for now, red_dog, I think it probably be better for you going with one of the Vizio tvs than a Samsung tv, due to Samsung not having full-array backlighting this year. Although, stay away from the 2017 E-series and the M-series, because I've read they are using a 60hz panel this year, whereas the 2016 M-series has a 120hz panel. I haven't heard of what the 2017 panel will be yet though.

[Arysyn]

FYI, price wise, this is arguably the worst time of the year to be shopping for a current model year TV. CES 2017 TVs just now are hitting the floor -- at MSRP.

 

AJ

Not only that, AJ, but the prices are higher too in general than even the expensive price points of last year's models. Some aren't even as good as last year's models either.

[richy]

We currently have about 280 sets (hotel) which I am in the process of replacing. We used some Toshiba but mostly LG in the past but I am all but set on Samsung this time. Most will be 1080p  although I have purchased some 4k sets already (65 inch LED) for use in presentations \ sporting events etc and I was really impressed. I initially went to costco and got about 6 different sets and played with them. The in room sets are different from what you would buy in the store (the panel is the same, the firmware is different to support different features). 

 

Our experience with LG was pretty poor, very high failure rate (never the panels, always the electronics). I'm hoping the samsungs will be different. I've had about 20 of them for 6 months with zero issues. While it is highly subjective I love the picture on the Samsungs, contrast, upscaling, saturation etc.