B25 CA?

[smooth25]

Tmo may have the ability to run B12 CA through its network and devices, but it also actively shunts people on B12 over to B4 if they are in range of it. They aren't going to let people who can use another band (that is much wider) waste resources on B12.

 

You say that Sprint should do something about speeds for users who aren't close enough to receive B41. The best thing they can do is kick people off B26 who could be using B25 or B41. When B26 only has users on it that are only in overage of that band, B26 performs pretty darn well. And if aggressively managed, it could run 10-30Mbps in most instances.

I see. I just feel that 5x5 isn't sufficient enough for nationwide midband.

 

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

[S4GRU]

I see. I just feel that 5x5 isn't sufficient enough for nationwide midband.

 

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

 

Sprint's Midband B25 is getting less and less relevant.  More and more of its traffic gets moved to B41 every day.  The more that gets off, the better it performs.  Additionally, Sprint is adding more B25 5x5 carriers and widening to a B25 10x10 in the markets it can.  Making B25 performance even better.

 

To illustrate crudely how B25 is becoming less important where B41 is deployed, see a typical suburban example below:

 

Tower #1                                                                 Tower #2

 

B41----------------------->                      <-----------------------B41

B25------------------------------>     <------------------------------B25

B26-------------------------------------------->

                                 <--------------------------------------------B26

                                     [-----]      [-----]   Only these people need B25

                                            [-----]          Only these people need B26

 

If the users are spread evenly between Tower 1 and 2, the B41 covers 75% of them.  B25 covers 16% of them where B41 does not and B26 covers 8% where neither other band covers.  And given that they tend to place towers closer to clusters of people, it is more likely that B41 will cover even more than 75% of users in a suburban layout scenario that is shown above.  And with small cells, Sprint can target these gaps and infill them to 100% B41 coverage, in time.

 

No matter how it's deployed, B25 only extends a little further than B41.  The more and more B41 gets deployed, the less burden B25 experiences.  We are already seeing significant B25 performance gains as more B41 and additional B25 carriers are deployed.  The key to Sprint's performance is to keep getting as much traffic on B41 as possible by continued aggressive deployment and aggressive network band management.

 

I'd love to see Sprint add intraband B25 Carrier Aggregation.  There are many markets that would benefit.  But seeing how there is no easy to implement path to do this, it would be a huge distraction over B41 deployment and NGN densification.  I just don't think that Sprint will see that the cost/benefit analysis is there anytime soon.

Edited October 3, 2015 by S4GRU
Added further clarification/explanation

[danlodish345]

Sprint's Midband B25 is getting less and less relevant.  More and more of its traffic gets moved to B41 every day.  The more that gets off, the better it performs.  Additionally, Sprint is adding more B25 5x5 carriers and widening to a B25 10x10 in the markets it can.  Making B25 performance even better.

 

To illustrate crudely how B25 is becoming less important where B41 is deployed, see a typical suburban example below:

 

Tower #1                                                                 Tower #2

 

B41----------------------->                      <-----------------------B41

B25------------------------------>     <------------------------------B25

B26-------------------------------------------->

                                 <--------------------------------------------B26

                                     [-----]      [-----]   Only these people need B25

                                            [-----]          Only these people need B26

 

If the users are spread evenly between Tower 1 and 2, the B41 covers 75% of them.  B25 covers 16% of them where B41 does not and B26 covers 8% where neither other band covers.  And given that they tend to place towers closer to clusters of people, it is more likely that B41 will cover even more than 75% of users in a suburban layout scenario that is shown above.  And with small cells, Sprint can target these gaps and infill them to 100% B41 coverage, in time.

 

No matter how it's deployed, B25 only extends a little further than B41.  The more and more B41 gets deployed, the less burden B25 experiences.  We are already seeing significant B25 performance gains as more B41 and additional B25 carriers are deployed.  The key to Sprint's performance is to keep getting as much traffic on B41 as possible by continued aggressive deployment and aggressive network band management.

 

I'd love to see Sprint add intraband B25 Carrier Aggregation.  There are many markets that would benefit.  But seeing how there is no easy to implement path to do this, it would be a huge distraction over B41 deployment and NGN densification.  I just don't think that Sprint will see that the cost/benefit analysis is there anytime soon.

i agree with you on the band 26 situation.... its obvious that band 26 should be left out of CA .....if sprint can manage its network resources very well they can become a completely different beast all together and become a serious threat to the other carriers

[bipbapbam]

I personally think B26 should not be aggregated with any other Band. In order for a user to use CA on B26 and any other Band, that means they could be using another Band altogether. And no one should be on B26 except for people who have no choice because they have no other LTE signal available. B26 is wasted to aggregate. It will never be useful to anyone else who can't use anything but B26.

 

B25 carrier aggregation could be useful with other B25 carriers. When Sprint can do this in the future, it will be useful.

 

However B25+B41 CA is also unnecessary and wasteful. Because if someone is in range of B41, there is no sense in them wasting B25 resources. They might as well be on B41 solely and possibly even let their device aggregate them with another B41 carrier. B41+B41 will always be better than B41+B25.

 

Using Tapatalk on BlackBerry Z30

I thought that Sprint had short term plans to aggregate the band 25 uplink with band 41 downlink so that they could turn up the power on band 41 to get a further reach. Why wouldn't that be a good plan for B41+B25?

[Dkoellerwx]

I thought that Sprint had short term plans to aggregate the band 25 uplink with band 41 downlink so that they could turn up the power on band 41 to get a further reach. Why wouldn't that be a good plan for B41+B25?

Not short term. The technology to accomplish this is not currently available. It still has to be developed, tested and certified. Then the B25 equipment would need upgrades to support it.

 

Sent from my LG G4

[S4GRU]

I thought that Sprint had short term plans to aggregate the band 25 uplink with band 41 downlink so that they could turn up the power on band 41 to get a further reach. Why wouldn't that be a good plan for B41+B25?

 

Definitely long term.  Not possible now.

[RAvirani]

Sprint's Midband B25 is getting less and less relevant.  More and more of its traffic gets moved to B41 every day.  The more that gets off, the better it performs.  Additionally, Sprint is adding more B25 5x5 carriers and widening to a B25 10x10 in the markets it can.  Making B25 performance even better.

 

To illustrate crudely how B25 is becoming less important where B41 is deployed, see a typical suburban example below:

 

Tower #1                                                                 Tower #2

 

B41----------------------->                      <-----------------------B41

B25------------------------------>     <------------------------------B25

B26-------------------------------------------->

                                 <--------------------------------------------B26

                                     [-----]      [-----]   Only these people need B25

                                            [-----]          Only these people need B26

 

If the users are spread evenly between Tower 1 and 2, the B41 covers 75% of them.  B25 covers 16% of them where B41 does not and B26 covers 8% where neither other band covers.  And given that they tend to place towers closer to clusters of people, it is more likely that B41 will cover even more than 75% of users in a suburban layout scenario that is shown above.  And with small cells, Sprint can target these gaps and infill them to 100% B41 coverage, in time.

 

No matter how it's deployed, B25 only extends a little further than B41.  The more and more B41 gets deployed, the less burden B25 experiences.  We are already seeing significant B25 performance gains as more B41 and additional B25 carriers are deployed.  The key to Sprint's performance is to keep getting as much traffic on B41 as possible by continued aggressive deployment and aggressive network band management.

 

I'd love to see Sprint add intraband B25 Carrier Aggregation.  There are many markets that would benefit.  But seeing how there is no easy to implement path to do this, it would be a huge distraction over B41 deployment and NGN densification.  I just don't think that Sprint will see that the cost/benefit analysis is there anytime soon.

Tower spacing isn't always this good though, especially in hilly areas

[S4GRU]

Tower spacing isn't always this good though, especially in hilly areas

 

Yes, there will be places where it is better and worse than the diagram. That's why I reference it as a crude diagram and one typical suburban application.  No one needs a signal inside of a hill anyway.  

[WiWavelength]

No one needs a signal inside of a hill anyway.  

 

Ahem, trolls live inside hills and under bridges.

 

AJ

[dnwk]

Correction. That is rel 11

 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

So, you can have different release for different band? Is there a list of what version each carrier use? How do we know if they upgraded? Any way to verify on the handset?

[4g4me]

So, you can have different release for different band? Is there a list of what version each carrier use? How do we know if they upgraded? Any way to verify on the handset?

I think of release level as a list of minimums. One manufacturer I've dealt with had b41_b2 and b41_b4 in a 'their' release 10, which is why I initially said R10. The release level is (primarily) for the mobility management entity (MME) of the evolved packet core (EPC). For CA all of the radios need to be on the same MME. All of the software for the radios and the other core items such as the s and p gateways have to match support.

 

A top 4 carrier will have many of these EPC service nodes.

 

In 4g the subscriber data is in a HSS and SPR. That is essentially replicated databases.

 

It is completely possible that one geographic area has different 3gpp release levels than another. Generally one EPC serves an area.

 

There aren't any public lists of which areas are served by an EPC or what level it is.

 

One would have to look at the handsets spec sheet to determine what features a handset support.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[orangeblue]

It's not a want thing. The release of LTE they deployed B25 with does not support CA. It will take an upgrade of the B25 network to do it. And with the other priorities on the front burner, I don't see them going through this trouble any time soon.

 

Using Tapatalk on BlackBerry Z30

 

So it could be a software update eventually?

[lilotimz]

So it could be a software update eventually?

No. Equipment upgrade.

 

Sent from my LG-H790

[Thomas L.]

Sprint's Midband B25 is getting less and less relevant.  More and more of its traffic gets moved to B41 every day.  The more that gets off, the better it performs.  Additionally, Sprint is adding more B25 5x5 carriers and widening to a B25 10x10 in the markets it can.  Making B25 performance even better.

 

To illustrate crudely how B25 is becoming less important where B41 is deployed, see a typical suburban example below:

 

Tower #1                                                                 Tower #2

 

B41----------------------->                      <-----------------------B41

B25------------------------------>     <------------------------------B25

B26-------------------------------------------->

                                 <--------------------------------------------B26

                                     [-----]      [-----]   Only these people need B25

                                            [-----]          Only these people need B26

 

If the users are spread evenly between Tower 1 and 2, the B41 covers 75% of them.  B25 covers 16% of them where B41 does not and B26 covers 8% where neither other band covers.  And given that they tend to place towers closer to clusters of people, it is more likely that B41 will cover even more than 75% of users in a suburban layout scenario that is shown above.  And with small cells, Sprint can target these gaps and infill them to 100% B41 coverage, in time.

 

No matter how it's deployed, B25 only extends a little further than B41.  The more and more B41 gets deployed, the less burden B25 experiences.  We are already seeing significant B25 performance gains as more B41 and additional B25 carriers are deployed.  The key to Sprint's performance is to keep getting as much traffic on B41 as possible by continued aggressive deployment and aggressive network band management.

 

I'd love to see Sprint add intraband B25 Carrier Aggregation.  There are many markets that would benefit.  But seeing how there is no easy to implement path to do this, it would be a huge distraction over B41 deployment and NGN densification.  I just don't think that Sprint will see that the cost/benefit analysis is there anytime soon.

 

You should pin this, it's a really good visualization, even if not perfect, of how the network is planned to work. I know in this little town where my parents live, now that there is band 41, the only time anyone is every on band 25 is if they don't have a Spark device, which is incredibly rare (my Dad has a single-band S4 and it essentially always maxes out speed tests). 

[MarshieZ]

To illustrate crudely how B25 is becoming less important where B41 is deployed, see a typical suburban example below:

 

Tower #1                                                                 Tower #2

 

B41----------------------->                      <-----------------------B41

B25------------------------------>     <------------------------------B25

B26-------------------------------------------->

                                 <--------------------------------------------B26

                                     [-----]      [-----]   Only these people need B25

                                            [-----]          Only these people need B26

 

This!! ^^^

 

That is by far one of the best and easiest explanation. B26 was never made to be a primary, strenuous use band. It's like one of those things that's there as "just in case" or a "backup" but shouldn't be used constantly. B25 and ultimately B41 are the workhorses.

 

This is why optimization is SO critical. If you have a site that's out of sync, you'll wind up having numerous amount of people on B26 but no one on B25 or - if it's deployed - B41. Then you have the mess of people complaining that the network is slow, when in reality it's really not. It's just not optimized to all it could be and you essentially have a full band of LTE - that's actually supposed to have the majority of users on - in the corner twiddling it's thumbs waiting for use.

 

When you're actually in an area with optimization and full build sites all around, Sprint really does kick butt. 

[EvanA]

 

 

Tmo may have the ability to run B12 CA through its network and devices, but it also actively shunts people on B12 over to B4 if they are in range of it. They aren't going to let people who can use another band (that is much wider) waste resources on B12.

T-Mobile's network is configured to do CA with the PCC as band 4/2 OR 12. Typically when both bands are in range 4 is configured as the PCC and 12 as the SCC.

[S4GRU]

T-Mobile's network is configured to do CA with the PCC as band 4/2 OR 12. Typically when both bands are in range 4 is configured as the PCC and 12 as the SCC.

 

I think you have misunderstood my point.  Or, perhaps, I was not clear.  T-Mobile will not allow their B12 speeds turn to complete crap.  They will shunt people off to B4 from B12, even when using CA, when they need to.

[EvanA]

I think you have misunderstood my point. Or, perhaps, I was not clear. T-Mobile will not allow their B12 speeds turn to complete crap. They will shunt people off to B4 from B12, even when using CA, when they need to.

Yeah that's definitely true, but for now band 12 is only lightly loaded so 4+12 CA is very common.

[RAvirani]

Yeah that's definitely true, but for now band 12 is only lightly loaded so 4+12 CA is very common.

They'll probably stop that at some point as stress and traffic build up on their 5x5 700mhz LTE.

[jonathanlc2005]

I am glad I saw this post...

 

I was looking at my moto x through signal check and I saw B41^2 and B25^2 here in Miami. If I see it again I'll post it but I do believe Sprint has CA on B25

[lilotimz]

I am glad I saw this post...

 

I was looking at my moto x through signal check and I saw B41^2 and B25^2 here in Miami. If I see it again I'll post it but I do believe Sprint has CA on B25

Sprint does not have carrier aggregation on B25. Read the posts on this thread. 

 

SCP says B41² and B25² because the phone reports GCIs that correspond to a 2nd added B41 carrier or B25 carrier. It does not indicate CA at all as Android does not report if CA is being used. 

[jonathanlc2005]

Yeah I read the posts but I also saw about CA on Sprint and saw B25^2. That was new to me to see that and haven't been on this page for a while. Sometimes people are wrong and was sharing my experience.

 

But you didn't need to be a dick about it and write FFS. Just say Sprint doesn't have CA on B25 and a link. That's all.

[jonathanlc2005]

Also I saw B25 when I did a speed test so thats why I was curious

 

My Speedtest result in North Miami Beach for Sprint (LTE) : 62.04 Mb/s (download) & 13.40 Mb/s (upload) via #sensorly

Edited November 17, 2015 by jonathanlc2005

[Dkoellerwx]

Also I saw B25 when I did a speed test so thats why I was curious

 

My Speedtest result in North Miami Beach for Sprint (LTE) : 62.04 Mb/s (download) & 13.40 Mb/s (upload) via #sensorly

On Band 25 you had those results?

[jonathanlc2005]

That's the way it appeared yes. Ping wasn't quoted but it was 185ms

Edited November 17, 2015 by jonathanlc2005