T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion

[WiWavelength]

I think it is understandable that people are frustrated when they've been sold a certain idea ("a billion roaming photo journalists uploading the human experience"). Obviously, they were not sold the dog crapping in the park paradigm, accurate as it might be.

 

Abused women often stay with and even defend men who abuse them simply because the women lack other means of support. But that does not make the abuse right or acceptable. Sprint sells itself to abusers and allows abuse out of financial necessity. That does not mean, though, that bystanders cannot castigate that abuse in either situation.

 

My utmost hope is that Sprint's situation improves enough that Sprint can retire "unlimited" data or impose throttling/traffic shaping on those who use far more data than what they have paid for. Then, the abusers will have to own up to the reality that they cannot use as much data as they want, as fast as they want, anywhere that they want, all the time.

 

AJ

[stitch1007]

Using data is not the same as a dog crapping the park, but abusing data is similar, as both actions negatively affect others who share that resource.

 

Now, if the dog crapping analogy does not work for you, try this one. You bring your large pack of dogs to the dog park and let them run wild to the detriment of the other dogs and owners trying to use the dog park. That is very similar to overuse of "unlimited" data.

 

 

 

You are making an unwarranted assumption. Did I ever say that over 500 MB was "excessive" use? No, I said that I would appreciate a 500 MB base tier, and those who use above and beyond 500 MB should pay for their additional usage.

 

AJ

 

AJ,

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I think I misunderstood your views.

 

What I would like is a reasonable cap at a reasonable price. Or if its torrents that are killing the unlimited dream. Then I would like a way for the carriers to find a way to limit or block these users.

 

For various reasons I use what I would consider a lot of data per month. (Around 6-8 gigs) I am willing to pay for what I use (and do). However, like adhrty pointed out, we are being sold on a dream of using our phones to back up our photos to the cloud, or as a replacement GPS, an always connected device to stream a movie or music whenever and where ever we want.

 

I do realize something is keeping that dream from being a reality. But I don't have the answers on how to fix the issue without hurting the people that are not abusing the system.

[Yuhfhrh]

Abused women often stay with and even defend men who abuse them simply because the women lack other means of support. But that does not make the abuse right or acceptable. Sprint sells itself to abusers and allows abuse out of financial necessity. That does not mean, though, that bystanders cannot castigate that abuse in either situation.

 

My utmost hope is that Sprint's situation improves enough that Sprint can retire "unlimited" data or impose throttling/traffic shaping on those who use far more data than what they have paid for. Then, the abusers will have to own up to the reality that they cannot use as much data as they want, as fast as they want, anywhere that they want, all the time.

 

AJ

 

AJ in your opinion, at Sprint's current pricing, how much data usage on a phone would you consider abuse? You seem very knowledgeable and this is a genuine question.

[S4GRU]

 

Abused women often stay with and even defend men who abuse them simply because the women lack other means of support. But that does not make the abuse right or acceptable. Sprint sells itself to abusers and allows abuse out of financial necessity. That does not mean, though, that bystanders cannot castigate that abuse in either situation.

 

My utmost hope is that Sprint's situation improves enough that Sprint can retire "unlimited" data or impose throttling/traffic shaping on those who use far more data than what they have paid for. Then, the abusers will have to own up to the reality that they cannot use as much data as they want, as fast as they want, anywhere that they want, all the time.

 

AJ

 

This is a great analogy of an explanation of exactly the position Sprint is in. Ironically, the loudest complainers when Sprint dumps unlimited will be the biggest causes of why Sprint had to drop it.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

 

 

[Keitarou]

I think some of you misunderstood the 500mb cap T-Mobile has. It is unlimited data with 500mb 4G/LTE. You can still use 10GB but it will be slowed to either 3G or 2G. The caps they have are soft caps not ones like Verizon or At&t where you pay extra for overages. So $50 plan will work for AJ and others who don't "abuse" their data.

 

While I agree that data should be offloaded to Wifi when you can, no one should tell someone on the bus that they have no life because they are staring at a small screen the whole time watching a movie off LTE/3G. It's their choice to make and it's your choice to not use the data even when you can. No need to complain about how people use the data they pay for. If/When Sprint changes their data model, people will decide to stay or leave based on their usage pattern. Again, it's everyone's choices since everyone is different.

[NGeorge]

I have been a Sprint user since late 2001ish, so I've been around quite a bit as well -- and I average around 1 - 1.5 gigs a month -- I also agree that as the pipe increases, the bandwidth increases. Not so much because of the fact that I do anything different with my phone, but because streaming automatically bumps up to the highest quality available... when listening to music or watching video, this isn't exactly a transparent and I can see why people worry about it... and for the most part, I do enjoy it.

 

I think the idea of "unlimited data" is a powerful thing. -- from a consumer standpoint, it's a good feeling to "not have to worry about it".

 

That said, I think there are two main ways around this to allow Sprint to continue to offer "unlimited" without killing their network that I would agree with...

 

1. It's a fact that something like 5% of the users use 30% or more of the bandwidth. Put a reasonable cap on the unlimited (like 5-10 gigs) that allow any reasonable user to pretty much have "unlimited" data, and kick them down to 3G speeds after that. That takes care of the people who use their data as their home ISP and abuse the service.

 

2. Keep everything unlimited, but use a proxy/compressor/bandwidth management to reduce the bandwidth usage. The technology is there now to do this with minimal delay, and with little to no quality reduction. If this was done *well*, it would reduce data use to the network, while still allowing unlimited data use. Again, this has to be done *well* -- I believe Cricket and Metro already do this, but it is not done well (images look crappy, response is slowed down etc).

 

The fact is, Verizon and AT&T have an incentive to offer complete uncompressed data as fast as possible-- it eats up bandwidth and they can charge overage. Sprint and T-Mobile have an incentive to manage their bandwidth--and by doing this, can reduce total bandwidth used.

 

Overall, I find the arguments that bandwidth is so constrained to be a bit weak. The price for bandwidth has dropped every year for decades, and this is more of a case of the providers not keeping up with usage trends and managing their networks and upgrading as needed.

 

Honestly the price to provide "unlimited data" should be about the same as it was 10 years ago with usage adjusted. 10 years ago a lot of people still had dialup and 1.5 meg broadband at home and bandwidth was more expensive at the headends on the wireline side... these days a 25 meg connection at home costs the same as a 1.5 meg connection did 10 years ago. The price of one big fiber connection to a site is similar to the price of a couple of T1s were back then, and I have to believe that the price of a cutting edge LTE site is similar in price to what a cutting edge 1x site was back then when Sprint was the absolute first carrier to offer "Vision" and the first color screen phones...

 

It's as if the carriers (except Sprint who was unlimited from the start) all started with the idea of a fixed data bucket (I remember when AT&T Blue started with like 20 megs for 20 bucks--which was reasonable since people didn't use as much bandwidth back then on their phones... Hesse was in charge then IIRC), then moved to "unlimited" to attract customers -- and over the last few years decided they could go back to "data buckets" since everyone was hooked and they could get away with it.

 

Same thing that happened with text messages (a VERY low-bandwidth and cheap product to provide)... Text plans used to be unlimited and FREE (usually included with a data plan), or 5 bucks for unlimited... then once every kid got hooked to it, they jacked the price up to the $15-20 that we see today once they realized no parent could give their kid a phone without it. The price of texts went down (they were low to begin with--the data use of texts is something like 100 texts for every minute of voice), but the carriers jacked up the price because of "popularity".

 

It just seems to me that wireless goes the opposite of computers and bandwidth in general--which is "the price goes down, even while capabilities go up exponentially"...

[adhrty]

This is a great analogy of an explanation of exactly the position Sprint is in. Ironically, the loudest complainers when Sprint dumps unlimited will be the biggest causes of why Sprint had to drop it.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

 

Comparing the abuse of a human being to too much data being used on the network of a non-entity corporation is deeply disturbing.

[S4GRU]

Comparing the abuse of a human being to too much data being used on the network of a non-entity corporation is deeply disturbing.

 

It neither promotes abuse against human beings, nor wireless networks. I fail to grasp your point.

 

Robert

[newyork4me]

AJ in your opinion, at Sprint's current pricing, how much data usage on a phone would you consider abuse? You seem very knowledgeable and this is a genuine question.

 

I assume he wouldn't like this:

[Boosted20V]

Some of the comments in here make me wish I was a VZ sub.

[WiWavelength]

Comparing the abuse of a human being to too much data being used on the network of a non-entity corporation is deeply disturbing.

 

No, not at all. Sprint is a service company. It consists of a body of subscribers even more so than it does a body of employees or shareholders. Abuse of employees or shareholders or the company itself is not the issue. But some subs do abuse other subs by using disproportionately far more than their fair share of "unlimited" data, thereby limiting the ability of other subs to use data.

 

AJ

[S4GRU]

I assume he wouldn't like this:

 

Yes, I would define this example as abusive. 334GB is too much for an unlimited account. If all that usage was on one site, that would be a significant amount of the total data the site even used in that 15 day period. Maybe even 15% to 20%. All to one subscriber.

 

Robert

[Bob Newhart]

334GB, is that tethering to multiple users?

That number is crazy high for a phone.

[tommym65]

OK, I guess I will try to make everyone mad:

1. I am 65 years old. I am not a grandma, nor a grandpa. Like AJ, I have been using Sprint for many years, and have been mostly satisfied. I sell computer software and I am technically up-to-date (in spite of my "advanced" age). And I use a significant quantity of mobile data: With 17 days to go this cycle, I have used 819.5 MB of 4G LTE, 72.6 MB of 3G, and 192.3 MB of hotspot data (for which I pay extra). Whoever used the "grandma" analogy owes me an apology. Please be more careful whom you insult.

2. I travel for business. Most of this month's 4G usage was on a trip to Los Angeles and San Francisco, where I could get 4G reliably, and where I did not (and do not, and in the future will not) trust hotel WiFi. I do not use bit torrents, I do not watch a lot of video, and I offload to WiFi where practical.

3. At home I have an Airave, and use WiFi on my Sprint phone for data. Even though I do yet not have reliable 4G at home, I would not use it heavily if I did, given that I have and pay for fast Internet, and that WiFi is likely to be more reliable for most Internet functions than 4G will, at least for a mobile phone in an aluminum-sided house on 1900 MHz (or 2600 MHZ, when available).

4. Is my 819 MB of 4G usage "excessive"? In my opinion, no. Others may disagree. But every time this argument pops up (and it seems to do so regularly), people start quoting numbers for "data caps", and berating heavy users, and so on. I agree with AJ that Sprint 4g "abusers" should and must be reined in at some point, and I fully expect Sprint to do so at the appropriate time in the future. However, I also (respectfully) disagree with AJ to some degree, in that I feel that the ultimate NV capacity per user will be HUGE, realistically well over 100 GB per month, even taking into account all the vagaries of time of day, urban congestion, increasing numbers of Sprint subscribers, etc., etc. Until NV is more built out, and until the deployments of 800 LTE and 2600 LTE are better defined, I feel that it is very premature to pronounce the need for data caps.

Thank you for listening, and let the flames begin.

[Fraydog]

Overall, I prefer the quality of service approach. If Sprint starts to shape traffic or semi-throttle during crowded times to balance loads, I'll have no issues with that. There's nothing stopping AT&T and Verizon from doing that as well, they just want the additional money.

 

For Verizon and AT&T:

 

1. Complain about excessive usage.

2. Under use and under deploy spectrum and fiber assets.

3. Set artificially low limits.

4. Watch as dumb consumers fail to track usage.

5. Collect overages.

6. ??????

7. PROFIT!!!

[Yuhfhrh]

Yes, I would define this example as abusive. 334GB is too much for an unlimited account. If all that usage was on one site, that would be a significant amount of the total data the site even used in that 15 day period. Maybe even 15% to 20%. All to one subscriber.

 

Robert

 

My typical usage is about 2GB a month, but twice a year I visit my grandparents for about 2 weeks and they have no internet. We end up using about 10GB of phone data (no tethering.)

 

I chose sprint because I knew I would be using large amounts of data like this on trips. They are the most cost effective.

[WiWavelength]

I assume he wouldn't like this:

 

Is that real? You have used 319 GB of data in half of your billing cycle? If so, you are a data abuser and a jerk to your fellow Sprint subs. You are violating your Ts and Cs, and I hope that Sprint terminates your account with extreme prejudice.

 

AJ

[Boosted20V]

Is that real? You have used 319 GB of data in half of your billing cycle? If so, you are a data abuser and a jerk to your fellow Sprint subs. You are violating your Ts and Cs, and I hope that Sprint terminates your account with extreme prejudice.

 

AJ

 

Agreed, If that is real, Sprint is woefully mismanaged for keeping such a user on the network.

[Keitarou]

Agreed, If that is real, Sprint is woefully mismanaged for keeping such a user on the network.

 

Don't even know how anyone can use that much without tethering illegally. You would have watch video's all day all month to do that.

[Fraydog]

That looks like a VZW screen shot. I've never seen Sprint's My Account so I don't know what their tracker looks like.

[Keitarou]

That looks like a VZW screen shot. I've never seen Sprint's My Account so I don't know what their tracker looks like.

 

you are so right. It is Verizon. And for grandfathered unlimited users, they can add hotspot and it's unlimited as well.

[WiWavelength]

For Verizon and AT&T:

 

1. Complain about excessive usage.

2. Under use and under deploy spectrum and fiber assets.

3. Set artificially low limits.

4. Watch as dumb consumers fail to track usage.

5. Collect overages.

6. ??????

7. PROFIT!!!

 

I do not completely buy the "Karl Bode" conspiracy theory approach to data caps. It is not so much about overages and profit as it is about responsible management of the network that actually exists. Now, you can argue that a better, higher capacity network should exist, but that is not reality. That is pie in the sky that we a when we stupidly allowed capitalists and oligopolists to build out our broadband infrastructure.

 

Robert works in management of state government construction, and I hope that I am not revealing too much, but he has said that seemingly ample tax dollars invite waste and corruption. Seemingly "unlimited" data does likewise.

 

AJ

[S4GRU]

OK, I guess I will try to make everyone mad:

 

1. I am 65 years old. I am not a grandma, nor a grandpa. Like AJ, I have been using Sprint for many years, and have been mostly satisfied. I sell computer software and I am technically up-to-date (in spite of myt "advanced" age). And I use a significant quantity of mobile data: With 17 days to go this cycle, I have used 819.5 MB of 4G LTE, 72.6 MB of 3G, and 192.3 MB of hotspot data (for which I pay extra). Whoever used the "grandma" analogy owes me an apology. Please be more careful whom you insult.

 

2. I travel for business. Most of this month's 4G usage was on a trip to Los Angeles and San Francisco, where I could get 4G reliably, and where I did not (and do not, and in the future will not) trust hotel WiFi. I do not use bit torrents, I do not watch a lot of video, and I offload to WiFi where practical.

 

3. At home I have an Airave, and use WiFi on my Sprint phone for data. Even though I do yet not have reliable 4G at home, I would not use it heavily if I did, given that I have and pay for fast Internet, and that WiFi is likely to be more reliable for most Internet functions than 4G will, at least for a mobile phone in an aluminum-sided house on 1900 MHz (or 2600 MHZ, when available).

 

4. Is my 819 MB of 4G usage "excessive"? In my opinion, no. Others may disagree. But every time this argument pops up (and it seems to do so regularly), people start quoting numbers for "data caps", and berating heavy users, and so on. I agree with AJ that Sprint 4g "abusers" should and must be reined in at some point, and I fully expect Sprint to do so at the appropriate time in the future. However, I also (respectfully) disagree with AJ to some degree, in that I feel that the ultimate NV capacity per user will be HUGE, realistically well over 100 GB per month, even taking into account all the vagaries of time of day, urban congestion, increasing numbers of Sprint subscribers, etc., etc. Until NV is more built out, and until the deployments of 800 LTE and 2600 LTE are better defined, I feel that it is very premature to pronounce the need for data caps.

 

Thank you for listening, and let the flames begin.

 

My typical usage is about 2GB a month, but twice a year I visit my grandparents for about 2 weeks and they have no internet. We end up using about 10GB of phone data (no tethering.)

 

I chose sprint because I knew I would be using large amounts of data like this on trips. They are the most cost effective.

 

Both of these scenarios are reasonable, in my opinion. I use on average 2-3GB of Sprint data on my device every month. However, it can shoot up to 4-6MB when I do a lot of travelling. I appreciate the flexibility that unlimited brings. However, I'm willing to live with a cap if Sprint cannot ensure a good data experience on LTE because of abusers. I support most means to limit abusers, whether traffic shaping, putting in place caps or throwing abusers off the network.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

 

 

[S4GRU]

That looks like a VZW screen shot. I've never seen Sprint's My Account so I don't know what their tracker looks like.

 

I have two VZW accounts. This is indeed a VZW account usage screen shot. I live and die by mine. Because it doesn't say unlimited, but rather 4GB on my account. I'm always checking it...paranoid that I'm going to go over. But generally end up using 2-3GB on it.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

[irev210]

I have two VZW accounts. This is indeed a VZW account usage screen shot. I live and die by mine. Because it doesn't say unlimited, but rather 4GB on my account. I'm always checking it...paranoid that I'm going to go over. But generally end up using 2-3GB on it.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

 

Robert, why not just assume the liability on someone's old verizon unlimited plan?

 

I know a family member with a legacy unlimited plan. Truly unlimited, including hotspot - and it does not violate any Verizon T/C's.

 

Verizon continues to allow customers with these rate plans but at the expensive of losing device subsidies (a worthy price increase for some, I suppose).

 

 

Is that real? You have used 319 GB of data in half of your billing cycle? If so, you are a data abuser and a jerk to your fellow Sprint subs. You are violating your Ts and Cs, and I hope that Sprint terminates your account with extreme prejudice.

 

AJ

 

It's the enemy, Verizon. Likely legitimate usage.